BTG 05 - Creonte

[Music] everyone this is episode 5 of the break in the guard podcast I am Robert Rizzo here with my co-host David Avalon and we've got lots to talk about today like we kind of try to pick our topics basically anything we find industry in anything like it's somewhat controversial within the BJJ or grappling community anything that will get people thinking or you know disagreeing on and we had a couple topics that we want to talk about today one of them was the use of peds in professional sports and the other one was the Creole she talked about Creole and she couldn't dodging it's an invented word in porters I'm not sure it has like a route I think Brazilians invent in it but it's it's basically like a trader right someone who leaves the gym and like you're training with instructor X and tomorrow you leave - instructor Y and that creates a lot of animosity if you've been in BJJ for more than a year or two you're probably familiar with this at some point at least someone you've known as I mean I think we've all been there but as we're going to talk about that first Dave and you want to kick start a conversation I think it's the conscience spikes I feel like it spikes and then it dies yeah and that it spikes yeah there's some controversy yeah somebody gets popped at all or grows up again and my head gets the most recent one was a village shop in my mind because he was actually caught with EPO and that yeah with steroids or HGH or whatever and I guess that was a a thing that was like the first instance in MMA where they can TLD with EPO I don't know I'm sure I think it's harder to catch I think that's one reason why I don't know enough about it to be able to say for sure but I think that's funny because like normally when you think of any kind of performance-enhancing substance you think of a heavyweight you're very rarely see the lightweights because the one one feature of like anabolic is that will put weight on you EPO doesn't obviously so that's the I mean that that would work for a lightweight I suppose it's the part it's that it's that it's the alarm for the podcast because I thought it wouldn't into 30 I continue so yeah so you know what EPO does to the body right they've liked it basically increases your red blood cell count red blood cell carries oxygen from your lungs to your muscle so basically constantly supply in your muscles with more oxygen and they would normally have right these levels obviously they vary from individual to individual if you live in a place of high altitude let's say you live in the you know in Bolivia or something you're gonna be you don't have naturally a higher production of red blood cells right so that basically increases your performance because basically you can it's like having more gas in your tank basically yeah a lot of people actually train in altitude tents you know we're obviously like I was in Miami and we're sea level yeah zero altitude but you can get these tents that essentially change the atmosphere a little bit it's not a perfect representation because you're just lowering the density of oxygen versus how it would be when you're at atmosphere okay it's supposed to make some marked improvement I know you see athletes I use it as well and common misconception is people they try to train at high altitude or I think they call hypoxic hypoxia where you're essentially they have the altitude mattress yeah not they even out to the mats they just have the little training mask which has like three little holes like strong yeah and from what I understand that's actually counterproductive it doesn't do anything physically to increase your red blood cell count because all you're doing there is limiting the amount of air you can breathe yeah and what triggers the increase of red blood cells or hemoglobin that absorbs iron what not is that the density of the oxygen in the air that yeah it's a long-term thing the reason people in believe you have it's not just that they're genetically predisposed to have it because of multiple generations being in that environment but also because from a very young age they less oxygen yes it's like it's okay every day of your life you have lytic sauce in your body you know boost your red blood cell count to counter for that right yeah X months to all that it's been a hyperbaric chamber base basically you're getting like eight hours out of the day when you're sleeping in it were there probably increasing it somewhat I just don't know how significant it would be I will say one thing about the master I think for red blood cell count purposes you're right because you're only wearing it for however long your training lasts let's see if you're doing conditioning for with the mask on probably like 15 minutes tops if you're doing something hard you know yeah but what it does do and this is one reason I I would use it I don't think it has a thing for red blood cell count it does for very well conditioned athletes it raises the bar even further so for example what it does is because you're getting less oxygen your body releases lactic acid to make up for so lactic acid it's almost like a reserve tank of your gas tank so you're on out of gas now you go in the reserve tank so with E and then loses lactic at lactic acid is the pump you feel in your forearms if you get that bet that nasty taste in your mouth when you're grappling it really tired and you want to spit it out of this lactic acid right and basically what you wanna do is you want to replace that with oxygen as fast as possible the better condition you are the faster your body replaces that lactic acid with oxygen you don't get your muscles pumped that's why hence why condition is so important why you guys out you feel that pump in your hand when you're tired right but you know what what happens is you want to make sure that your your low lactic acid input is not it's not if it's too high your good performance is going to suffer what the mask will do it it's gonna push that threshold of lactic acid cumulation a lot faster so the athlete gets used to dealing with the replacement of lactic acid with oxygen with very little oxygen so I'll give you an example like Max right it's hard to get max tired I cop done condition with him like the kind of stuff that would break most people after like two minutes three minutes he's going he recovers extremely fast so we're considering using the mass with him because I'm having a hard time getting this kid tired and that's a good thing but I feel like you've never met how hard the condition is it's so hard to replicate a fight because in the fight you always call that X smile you know so it's the only situation I can see like the mask making sense but I'm with you it doesn't increase your red blood stuff you don't wear it long enough does it make sense right no and the other thing too is that people who are proponents of altitude training the idiom they use is you sleep I train low yeah right because you want to be resting at high altitude oh because you're not going to be able to if I get the same athlete and put them in a high altitude have them do sprints and then put him at low altitude and do sprints he's gonna do way better on the other two which means he's putting more effort now so you're not gonna be able to work as hard at high altitude so your training is going to suffer as a constant gasps and well increases the red blood cell count is not how hard you're working is yeah time yeah so it doesn't make sense to Train yeah because you're not gonna be able to push yourself and get those intensity Peaks at you so I think when it comes to trade I like to Train to me it has to be like very and this goes for every thank you very you hyper focus on certain traits right so for example if you're working in a choreo you have to hyper focus on that aspect of your condition or power whatever it is they do because martial arts is about learning I think it's different I think a lot of conditioning coaches a beef I have with a lot of conditioning coaches is they come from like a college background right and if you look at like they come they know all the research that they've studied it's primarily from sports like football basketball powerlifting you know that's great but they come with these models that are based off of football and other sports or swimming maybe because we're more they've had a government funding and research for decades there's a lot of research on sports like swimming and powerlifting and whatnot there's our Olympic sports and they try to you know kind of fit that kind of template into fighting it it's so different because fighting is learning based so I think the prime majority of workouts should be learning which means that if I break you in five minutes let's say I could probably break you physically in ten minutes if I have you like jumping and flipping tire I'm do okay well how much did you learn let's say you could roll with that intensity in ten minutes how much did you actually learn you got tire and that's great but you're better off at a slower pace with a two-hour session because you're gonna learn a lot more at the end right but for training purposes you have to mix it this time what we're doing max then we mix it up like once a week we have a brutal session this is not about learning this isn't about your cardio or your power this is about breaking you physically once a week I'm so tired you can't walk this is gonna be real try make it harder than the fight now you can't make that your camp that's insane you're gonna die that's not no you're not gonna learn anything if you were straight like that but at the same time some of these guys and I've seen how it's some of these physiologists they come from like you know the grad students from greater universities they come over the trains MMA fighters and they're measuring everything in your body and I'm watching the workout I'm like that guy's not tired oh no he's done for the day I'm like he's not tired he could have gone another thirty minutes but they they swing all the way towards all these I'm not a sophisticated at data and and and and exercise and all that but they're not pushing the guys there's that that hard push you get in wrestling we're talking about this a while ago you don't get that man some of these like some of these conditioning coach like man you're gonna gas out unless you get pushed out threshold at least once a week yeah the the wrestling cardio that investors have comes from that intense push like they I honestly like some of the best shape I've ever been was poly was in high school yeah you know it's kind of sad it's just how hard they push you yeah you really need someone to take you to that level it's hard to have that self discipline on yourself to go okay I'm gonna try to kill myself training like it's really really difficult you know it's hard even if you're super disciplined as hard as you put yourself the coach will get you a little bit yeah actually yeah yes push you can see your point okay so do this do me a favor can you describe what a work is like ii-i've heard you tell me this before but I want them to hear from you what is it like the sort of intensity we're describing because I think if you've been BJJ or MMA for a while you know we're talking about but a lot of times the people that come from other backgrounds right they don't comprehend it cuz I've seen like we went back to other sports I've seen like professional football players do conditioning up done condition our next step I'm watching on like it's like my day off yeah do do like a 30-second sprint and rest for a minute I'm like oh that's nice but like there's a lot of that and some of these sports because the same intention you get from rest I believe wrestlers are the best athletes in the world next when they made fighters maybe like the rather phenomenal shaping you have to be described that push so I'll tell you the typical brand that mind you this is a high school yeah wrestling practice it was run by a lucky investor and lucky humans a really good wrestling program any coach is a little bit intense because he just graduated and went straight there's a reason why you remember it man yeah yeah sure so if you're out there so pretty much we would start every day with an Indian run which essentially is a three-mile run and it's like two lines and the guy at the back of the line has to sprint to the front and you and you and you're jogging the whole time is gone so it's a intermitted sprinting with a fast paced job how many people who's curious uh probably about 20 people so two lines of ten I just printed the whole time you got like this actually ten seconds between each sprint I mean so and you add the whole time you jogging had a good clip you know and our coach made sure because not like a lot of coaches are not in the training with you her so was leading the pace he was jogging he was jogging so he was a pace leader so he was only guy was not hard to do we're gonna talk about that at some point cuz that's really hard to do yeah so it's a you can't talk [ __ ] years old for coach yeah yeah that's a really young coach I think the training was really hard because it was like he just finished getting this done to him and dad you know it kind of translated it because we had a team that started with like 60 some people at the end of the season those like 10 he just we did everybody that's a selection process yeah yeah that's why that's that normal dessert for the regular roster for a wrestling high school I think is 13 so we even have enough for a roster yeah we're like well I think one we wouldn't have this discussion as well as we talk like our minds like my mind goes all over the place but that is one reason why wrestlers are such dominant athletes in MMA to me yeah the technique and the hard work and I get that but people don't realize a selection process that goes on from a very young age weeding out the unlit leaded kids in like sticking like the best athletes and the highs school are the ones are gonna get a college scholarship and those the best app it's a pyramid right like the Soviets did this is a pyramid you end up the best athletes in the country so yeah like you have you and you at the time you finish if you like if you're an NC double-a all-star American you're one of the best athletes in the country well I get extremely naturally extreme if you wouldn't have made it that far I did not been an upstanding athlete yeah Lolo Jones were significant going from like you can get someone who was like a middle school state champion he means nothing in high school now and I remember was one of the guys I went to a camp in Minnesota a lot like on the Jay Robinson 28 day intensive gym right so in there one of the counselors was one of the wrestlers at Minnesota and he was a five-time national champion in high school right which means like he entered in as a freshman and I think he was wrestling since 8th grade 9th 10th 11th 12th one every time so the kid was a stud right at the state level national so as a high school is like unstoppable when he got into the college room he couldn't take anybody down not even like the third string juror and he had two men who was like mentally crushed even I used to say we're not used to losing now you've been able to score a point like at one point like he was getting destroyed and he was like at the breaking point where he was about to quit he's like manic he doesn't know what's going on with him and then all of a sudden he got his first breakthrough you got one point and then like everything start to stack but so like and then if you go from that level to then world class level then it's a whole nother level I've heard that collegiate wrestlers going into like Olympic training centers and like it's like a notch above that you know it's also the rule difference as well because yeah there's all that I'm Celina I don't know Russell but like I know the Freestyle in the collegiate I know the collegiate style folk styles a little more grappling wise right there's all the lake riding and yeah so the main difference between the international wrestling versus folks Alves and folks out wrestling your goal is to pin the guy but there's also an emphasis on the bottom guy if he's on his if he gets taken the hangs on his force he has to back up to his feet they will not restart the match no matter how long you're holding them down in international wrestling if I'm down for like 10 seconds and nothing's happening they starts back up so pretty much in order to keep the guy down in a national investor you have to turn them yeah and if there's no turn within 10-15 seconds pull back up to your feet so the bottom guy doesn't have to practice how to stand up it's got a practice stay a flap just a flat so he doesn't learn any escape interesting and then the top guy doesn't really have to work break downs yeah because in folk style wrestling you can't seem to be bringing the guy back from yeah that returns right yeah so do two skill pivotal skills for fighting there are one exist in Olympic well that's why there's a lot of crazy like your mother how come people stand up all the time because he's not training the style where requires him to control him yeah he's great at putting people in their house yeah he doesn't do a good job of holding him down because he's not world classic and my guess would be that the the folk style wrestlers would learn jujitsu a lot faster too because like they of the for my experience collegiate wrestlers it's like I the one of the good ones they've to me they were there black belts at everything - submissions and fighting off their back yeah it's true other than that like their black bull said everything everything else didn't do they nobody they kind of know how to pass the I got amazing balance they got the takedowns down and what they're missing is the submission and then you know fighting off your back but like they they know how to be know how to grapple like yeah I've wrestled with all of grapple with like Olympic wrestlers and they come from that international background you're talking about and it's different yeah they'll sit on their knees and they're not really grabbing your head and if you they don't know how to go to the backwards like a like a collegiate wrestler knows how to leg ride like you it's a back attack you're attacking the back just like in now of the point of choking of painting obviously but there's a lot more it's a lot more jujitsu like yeah it is and I think the skills are very practical they translate really well particularly the skill of pinning pinning is underutilized I thinking jujitsu and Emma Maids they've been doing it but not to the extent where I think it could be exploited but coming back around to the wrestling the package so you did that three million run then we would go inside and we were start a wrestling practice and then the wrestling practice you would do your warm-ups and anybody who has done Jiu Jitsu warm-ups it's very similar there you know circle inside outside not too difficult but then they all start doing experience or you start doing like explosive jobs or whatnot get your heart racing again then you go into technique or drilling I'm sorry so it might be another 15 30 minutes of this drilling doing double legs doing Stan knows anything and usually they try to chain them like you'll drill two skills together maybe I take you down and then you work reversing or I think I like it I can fee so like we build sequences yeah first is just standalone moves and then there may be like 30 minutes of technique work going over new techniques and then the rest is gonna be more live lot of situational drills usually based off the technique start from the head inside single leg finish it other guys working on escapes and some live work and then more cardio at the end a good experience so two to three hour practice hours and that's when they're done that's and you're done you're generally people are also training either doing weightlifting outside of that or they're doing running in the morning as I was doing that it's a lot yeah I mean in high school I think I feel like if people don't realize when you're not young how much easier is to recover and how your body is intact yeah you have like I get deja vu grappling sometimes cuz I've been the situation I really hurt myself so like I hesitate because like I have my bishop who's in mind like I've been here before I've hurt myself last time hesitate whereas if you're like 1516 your body's like you like Wolverine so you just like run through a wall and psych nothing but I I like enough train like that what you're describing to me it's ironic because when I started training he's just a very young sport of comparison to wrestling like if you look at how many papers are written on wrestling versus BJJ when that answers you how evolved both these sports are as arts right like how evolved they are wrestling's light years I had number of ways but I feel that when I started training like practice was in a certain way and I've been I've been watching this evolution of how BJJ progressed how training methodology and it's becoming a lot more similar to what you're describing yeah me for myself like as I do like chain movements I didn't learn it that way but like I work on chains sometimes three four sequences for both both you know partners so they're both interacting good drilling that I see in BJJ I think it's it a lot of the person what there was no drilling and then there was a drill and I don't like I think it's a waste of time it's kind of like drilling with a dead body like you let me put a dummy on the floor and it'd be the same thing I'm like I don't know it's not realistic you're not learning anything you're just burning energy and wasting your time but then there's a kind of wrestling like drill and it's like semi-live yes like we're moving and I'm like because then you're learning timing movement it's realistic because your opponent gives you a little feedback right versus I'm just falling down the second you touch them and that's what I've been gravitating towards so like I've been watching I feel like other schools are beginning to do this and it's interesting because even though you did interesting there's to me they're more similarities and differences like people focus on the differences but no one pays attention to similarities when you look at the similarities like they're very solar and then it's interesting the house see that methodology becomes more and more alike because it's the process of selection right like this stuff is not working let's do more of this and eventually I think that will end up very very similar to like a collegiate wrestling practice for the competitive BJJ Alize yeah I think it's just like you said the evolution of the sport as more people are doing it and as there's more money flowing into as well because wrestlers that come in are generally are the athletes whereas a lot of people in the old days that were doing judges so even MMA worn athletes yeah they were just tough guys yeah and so now you're starting to see pretty much everybody the UFC yeah there's no like just you don't have ways yeah no see one to ten where you just have like guys are pot bellies or a tank Abbott really I'm there like they cuz they wouldn't make it in today's world yeah because like it's we've weeded out like it's a cell it's against a selector we end up with the best oh yeah but as time develops you know the training improves yeah people realize oh this is what works better but uh coming around like what you were saying in other sports that they try to adopt like when you have sports physios like oh we're gonna do what we do in football I'm bring it that's what they learn right yeah it's not really the sink though the thing about MMA is that it uses a lot of different types of condition yeah right because you have obviously explosive bursts when you're striking or any wrestling clinches or takedowns but then there's also laws of action where it's kind of slow yeah and then you have to burst out and then go slow and so it's difficult to say like I was like we're still working on it like what's the perfect way to train to develop the cardio and usually what I've seen people doing you got to do a mix of things yeah it can't just be all sprints yeah right it can't just be all like variety of stink slow roll and stuff there's gotta be a variety and everybody's formula is slightly different depending on the style house so that's why I think it's very interesting because there's no cookie cutter recipe you know you can have someone that goes we're all very - yeah I have someone like even like strategically like someone like damn Demian Maia it's very successful you know I mean like people clapping them a bit but like these three losses recently or two who will be coming then interim champion Guzman champion tyron woodley champion and they beat him by like pointing him out you know they know buddy and Damien's 40 yeah 40 years old like fought for the title twice yeah an impressive resume and he's not the most athletic I have know Damien well trained with he's not he's not the fastest or strongest guy but it's with him it's really mental more than anything yeah but I mean like it's very impressive with you yeah you know and he's a guy who's pretty much went the pure grappling route of some standout you know so a lot of people are going more stand-up with the wrestling to nullify the ground game but there's a lot of ways that people can win with this so the condition is gonna be different depending on your style you know so and according your weaknesses - I feel like people naturally have predispositions which is interesting that the people that had natural good cardio left a jog and the people are naturally explosive love to like power lift yeah you know and it's you really this is where discipline kicks in let's make it discipline is not doing something every day discipline is doing what you hate that's what discipline is you know and like if you have a weakness that's what you got to work on like are things that I've always been we've mentioned so I'm been flexible yeah I could stretch but that's not gonna make me you know I'm he's gonna prove me this much worse like I my lactic acid tolerance has never been very high so like I need that kind of conditioning we were describing earlier that's what like that's what I should be leaning towards yeah but that's where coach comes in because if you leave it to me I'm always gonna lean towards the thing is like I love roll in jiu-jitsu that's easy I gave I don't gonna call it discipline shown up to gym every day it's so fun I love it you know but like running sprints uphill I hated and I thirty few moments in my life I had a coach yelling at me and I always perform better this is like really where I think the coach excels it's like sometimes it's less technique to be honest it's more just that figure there that you respect and trust telling you to go that extra mile give you that yeah it's honestly man sometimes it's less about the technique it's crazy to say this was like obviously that's important but I think there's some times it really is just that figure that you know get you to above all that you trust well he says pretty one more round yeah warm-up mile like you trust him you know and and that right there goes a long way my brother and I work most part a lot of self coached because when we went into wrestling and we finished and we started we had an instructor for MMA for maybe like a year or two and he left and there's just me my brother Ronin yeah all right so a lot of times conditioning or training I'd ask myself what don't I want to do but that's grown man like if everyone did that it's it's hard to do though Greg that way that's I I've done them before Bob Sayles less than 1% 1% of my practices I'd like 99% of the time I just grab it to through the things that I like to do and it's a flaw but I think I know like when I came up a lot of my thinking translating to jujitsu in the matrons because wrestling when I I read a book that's called wrestle to win by this Olympic coach easy Hendricks and it was like a basic sport psychology book that I have incorporated into everything I do that because it was very simple is like maybe 80 pages is out of print now you can where it was super good one of the things that it started with the early it was gameplay advice okay develop a game plan what's your plan a then if that doesn't work what's plan B and what's Plan C and it taught me to train drilling sequences that you were talking earlier about like a lot of people jiu-jitsu they drill and I'm like that's not drilling because you're talking yeah you can't talk when you Julie because yeah you're drilling I the way I've always talked about this but there's four ways there's like a learning cycle yeah I call it take four steps and the the step one is observation like before I can learn something I have to observe it in action you know so generally we're in a classroom and I read you're teaching a technique I'm observing you teach that technique and that's where I start to internalize a concept of what this thing is I'm going to learn the second step is practice and to me practice is when you have to think your way through executing a new idea or technique alright so that guy learned the arm off you know that okay so I grab here and I'm doing this yeah it's awkward it's close but it's starting to make that idea in your head real the third step is drilling now with whatever iteration I have understanding I'm going to drill this to a hundred percent of my ability and my opponent we might orchestrate a sequence where we go back and forth like resistance but I'm doing it a hundred percent of my ability it's the most difficult part of learning in my opinion is you because the drilling part is what's going to build speed proficiency timing the final step is sparring or live combat and that step is your feedback loop because now you're going to give someone's actually resistant you and it's gonna plug back in after you finish that match you're gonna look back in your memory and observe what went wrong what went right practice out the mistake now drill the new iteration bar and face feedback right you say like I mean you describe a scientific method you said on first step you said observation like oh I know that because it's kind of what you're doing though because you have that at that trial phase and then you have your theory at the end and then if the theories no good you observe why it's wrong start all over again and correct it right and how you evolved that's the process of evolution there and and III have to do I think exact say I've never put it like that like those four steps buts exactly what I'm looking at one thing I like a lot going back to the drilling and I've been doing this more and more with my students I recommend it is having its teaching the other party to be a good training partner to give you the correct feel so if I'm grilling with you let's say a double-leg I want you to resist thirty forty percent intensity do exactly what you do when you go alive no power no speed because then you give me the reactions I can expect when I go live because the worst thing is for you to drill and move and because you're imaginal you practice the move in a certain way and then you're doing something I didn't know you're gonna do I'm surprised by your resistance over your reaction I go oh I don't know what to do now all that well doesn't work yeah well it's a way of getting your student used to the reaction they're gonna feel they're gonna encounter when they go live it's also reality check because if they're doing it wrong when there's no resistance now they know now that if they're exposing even 40 percent resistance there are mistakes are exposed right and then and also what it does is it reinforces your teaching so if sometimes I'm sure this has happened you it's happened to me a million times where my instructor would give me a move or a detail and I go like that's stupid why is he doing like that why don't I do it this way cuz I know right I'm up a little bit I know everything so I would do things my own way and I kind of ignore you know but when you're when you're met with with real resistance you immediately understand why your coach gave that detail that's when the detail makes sense and it's when it makes sense that you go oh got it right I'm the kind of person maybe you are telling a lot of people are like that they I have to learn my failure that's the best way for me to learn if I do something it doesn't work or have to be I have to understand it of no more physically because you can tell me don't stick their arm in that triangle I'll probably do it until you catch me through five more times and that to me it's a really best way of that's the true lesson right and I think that in BJJ still there's not enough of that but I think like I said we're slowly gravity gravitating towards that sword right no I agree with the with the drilling it definitely has to have feedback there has to be some resistance level that the partner has to put appropriate level resistance if he's like oh you know like a dead fish he's not giving it right sometimes you can even do the move if he's not reacting in a certain way and I think a lot of times what happens is in this learning cycle most people just want to be at step four anybody loves going lives yeah it's the funnest part you know you're right you're right but people don't realize the professionals are doing most of the work in the drilling all the guys I know when I would prepare for a TCC it was 80% really yeah I would do like live roles like two or three times a week it was a lot of but really let me do a practice where it was just an hour of me drill one sequence and my brother used my coach so he would orchestrate like maybe a five or six step sequence where I have a partner I'm shooting a double leg he's sprawling goes from my back I roll into a knee bar he escapes I got on top past the guard he doesn't under his gait gets up to his feet that's one but now we're gonna do 100 each so let me ask you this because I I've given this a lot of thought and I do know it's like a lot of collegiate wrestlers and judoka is also they come into BJJ and they're shocked by how much more live rolling there is over drilling because I have never wrestle in college or doing judo for that matter but I'm going the impression dates like what 70/30 8020 drilling versus live when a BJJ it's the opposite a lot more like people because it's fun everyone loves it yeah but else I could be wrong here this is just like a hunch but like I think that there's another element that goes on I think the injury ratio and sports like judo and wrestling are a lot higher than in BJJ and because BJ just primarily on the ground it's more controlled there's less impact yeah you're tweaked a need you know that happens you know you make crank hurt your neck whatever I think that one reason I could be wrong there just is just like I guess I think that one reason why judo cos and wrestlers drill so much is because the injury ratio goes up a lot significantly when you're standing you're on the ground and hey the injury ratio is a lot lower I think that's one reason why there's longevity in BJJ more than in wrestling you don't see I mean you see 40 year old guys wrestling but you see a lot of 40 year old people do in BJJ because the ground there is less impact right so I think that could be a side effect of the druid the lack of drilling could be inside the fact that yeah rolling is more fun true but the injury ratio is a lot lower to allows for you know less I I definitely agree with that right like it's hard to wrestle like and you said you don't see a lot of 40 year olds well there's eNOS that's the other thing there isn't really a place for wrestlers if you were for YouTube like Russell somewhere like you would go to something like freestyle tours like that as far as I know there isn't like schools or what never cuz it only out of college they're done you know I never rest of a high school for them and you never wrestle it's a short-lived it's why it's so intense like it yeah it's like the drama is like it's much more difficult for like wrestlers to accept losses and you think you'll see people ball in their eyes out myself included when I lost my last high school arresting that she's like because you have like a finite time span yeah and you can hear in wrestlers talking about like for me or asking or whatnot but then when you go to your final profession it's like I'm not really time limited you know like if I lose this match it's not like I lost a final opportunity I I get back that opportunity maybe that in a year to I could fight for it Yanks let's your moment shirt so I think yeah yeah that's fine we at one point we're gonna have to have this talk as just about motivation and but we talked about this before like how it changes over time you know like I think that like it might mean something to you like I got a younger age it was more about honor and life and death you know what as you're like pretty a lot not must be for myself well I probably professional fight at some point becomes about money too yeah so it's like it sucks that you lost that money but you don't go hold like I you know always like could have made an extra million dollars right there you know but like but I really believe that at some point in love moving the life of these guys they're really look at the paycheck you know you mean mid-30s and you got kids now all of a sudden it's less about your ego it's more about oh man I got I got a big boat that I got to pay for you know I got they it's the bills become like a significant factor in motivation of Fighters and yeah it's hard to stay motivated when the practice is that hard and if you're not getting a reward especially so when you're 35 40 and you're getting paid a lot of money it kind of makes sense that pushed through and it changes it changes over time like you said the reasons why every way that gets into fighting and at first it's about ego right because you try it would be alpha you want to be the alpha male you want to prove that you're the best and you are not to to prove yourself but at a certain point you'll start feeling like at least for me that I didn't have anything left to prove or that I didn't have a desire to prove myself anymore like I feel like I know what I'm people will know there's like I could win something and it's not gonna really make a big difference and once you lose that you've lost a lot of fire there right so then it's like okay well why am I still fighting oh yeah so you're like financial security or whatnot yeah if I don't have any other means of making money especially when you're one of these top fighter and you're making a couple hundred thousand dollars at every fight it's a big money is okay I might not care about about it the way I used to the financial incentives enough are due percent like it's it's it's it changes like no no doubt and yeah that's I mean we we have to have that that conversation where these days like that's like a huge I mean we definitely like to talk about that and more life because it's different for it's different it's not only the Asianet but like even like the sports I think the reason why people try and BJJ versus why the interim in May and I think as a result end up with like very very different cultures speaking of this this cultural factor this is something I because I've gravitating in BJJ in Brazil in the US and then MMA only in the US but I do see differences of cultures not just between Brazil in the US but like between BJJ and MMA right and you know BJJ has a foot in Brazilian kind of won in Japan too and this kind of leads us into the Creole inchi conversation I wanted to have we we were gonna have initially but the the whole thing is I I'm two minds about that because I've been on both sides of that fence I'm not sure you tell us how you feel about that but these cultural differences are interested me because I do see the code from BJJ changing I see it changing very quickly and it's very strange to me where you know I'm did you call the old school for thinking the way to me just like it's just like standard obvious and but that's I'm right like what you're talking about yeah but like BJJ in some ways has that Japanese matrix sort of call it where is like you know thank you master Thank You sensei for letting me be here on the mats and sharing your knowledge with me I will sweep the maps before and after class thank you says say can I do your laundry house not that extreme like that's how it is in certain environments like you are the boss and every student no matter how good they are they're very very respectful that hierarchy and and Mme I and Brazilians lost some of that but there's a lot of that it kept that's stayed in Brazilian Jujitsu like that's sort of mentality and then like MMA as a very it's a very it's a Westar swimming those developed in Brazil it's really become very westernized in the sense where it's like what we do what's this real yeah you know and anime like that not hierarchy were describing of like respect for the master does not exist in anime and the hierarchy goes to fighter the better you get you are the more you get paid the higher you go up the hierarchy a coach I'll let you get five seconds of TV time in exchange for you training me you know that were like sometimes they don't even pay the coaches or and if the coach tells the fight or what he's gonna do in challenges them off you go you know it's a very different kind of culture and one of these one of these one thing that is that is so it's like blasphemous in BJJ is leaving a gym yeah like and everyone's been through this whereas I can wrestling or MMA if you go from camp eight it can't be I get to impression don't give two shits and life just goes on and that's that and if we end up fighting with your own teammates that's just life and it's professional where is like it's it's talking about that how do you feel about this I want to hear you because like I've been on both sides of that fence so I want to you know I'm 50/50 on I understand thanks from both perspectives have you had experiences what's going on students or yourself on this I think that we're gonna be somewhere close to you know agreeing on this first like the term Creon she is actually I looked it up Wikipedia great the Wikipedia is created by the carp master Grandmaster Carson great so he invented the word I knew that I would write because that word doesn't exist in question got worried so much it was a need from a soap opera okay it was a Brazilian soap opera and the character was a guy who switched allegiances and backstab people it's okay so he does so he just borrowed it he just borrowed the name without character color crayon Chi and now that's Carson was known for like assimilating words for other things and implementing them to gpgj Carson Gracie jr. a costumer she's a senior just had a statue built for him in Rio de Janeiro like like a bronze statue absolutely beautiful he acquitted another word he got from cockfight in front like were fighting okay it was Luca Luca is at that rooster that doesn't want to fight like when a time comes he's like that right here and then he goes the last second and goes like I want to get out of here like in BJJ my every use the terminal took all the time there someone was scared of fighting yeah I think very few people know that at Carlson Gracie actually introduced that word into the the BJJ vocabulary yeah but with going back to the cream cheese yeah yeah I think anybody's had a gym for any length of time like one month or two months right and I see what a little blog about this but I see I can understand from the coaches standpoint like how it feels and but the students often have don't get it right particularly here in the US because like you said it's very Western in the sense that they think well it's a service base but yeah exactly me I pay for something I get training and walk out like if you're walking into McDonald's you no longer like this neck Donald you go to Wendy's the next day and that's habits business transactions only yeah and you know in other sports people switch teams all the time and there's that nearly as much uproar I mean it sure people get upset when LeBron goes from here somewhere but it's not like a giant stigma as I can certain schools you leave and there you gotta go Scarlet Letter in there back you know I mean they got anybody hates you not always a traitor or whatever so I think that's misplaced but I can understand from both sides like from the coaches angle first of all I would never call like a a casual student a Creole ji yeah someone was coming here once or twice a week and he goes I mean that schedule is just to make their life better right so whether that means getting them in better shape learning self-defense yeah and ultimately you try to get them to the black belt and develop that black belt mentality yeah that's your goal for them and it may if they can't accomplish it with you and they go somewhere else I mean it is where this you know normally when you here is usually when someone who's a star pupil right or someone you've invested there's an emotional attachment that's the real progress yeah yeah because you develop this because of the amount of time you put it and most people don't get that either because from that athlete standpoint or coaches a resource right like I've been coming to him to learn and to get trained and to get better he's a resource whereas from the coaches standpoint a lot of times do you see the athlete as a an extension of themselves like like it's like a extended family yeah like I'm putting in my heart and he comes like a son to you a lot of people I see is a like I've had in my summers I guess a father-son relationship I think we're not you know because people realize you're you're putting more time in training with these guys probably about anywhere from two to four hours depending on what you're doing you're helping them with their diet getting the weight cut plans you're traveling with them all over the country or the world you know you're doing press events with them whenever they have little mini dramas or whatnot which are gonna happen you're gonna be there to resolve this issue so it's like being a parent you know if you're coaching someone who's a professional or aspiring to be one you're sinking in a lot of time and the thing is as the coach you're in the more vulnerable position because if that person leaves all the time and effort you put into them leads with them whereas as athlete you absorbed all the lessons and you get to move on you know so it's it's a losing relationship for the coach it's a risky relation yeah but it's good investment yeah and it's a huge investment yeah you know so like my mind on this is that there's pretty much five reasons why someone would switch camps okay one he moved you can't help that right guy moves to Colorado I can say hey you gotta fly everyday dreaming that's silly what you should you're committed you would to there's some type of drama with the coach yeah right like they got into some personal beef that's gonna mix messed things up or three drama with other students or other athletes yeah that could cause problems as well for is the one that if the coach or the student feels they've exhausted the resource of the coach like they've learned everything they had to offer him or now they know better than the coach or that the training is no longer adequate that's a reason they move and the fifth final reason financial yeah they can't afford a train or they're getting incentives to train somewhere else or yeah boomed out my main room so these are pretty much the five reasons someone I I think that yes you're spot on and like just going back something you were saying I think that one reason why someone becomes a crown which is normally an emotional attachment there because everyone always goes like oh I'm pay and I'll do whatever I want but what the student doesn't see a lot of times that you're paying a membership or not normally the current just don't pay a membership that's part of the problem but if they're paying a membership to think oh I pay I go ever I want but like what they don't see is that the coach goes well beyond what he's supposed to do you know when we corner students at tournaments as a coach you're not getting paid for that you know your coach is doing you a favor when your coach goes to you to a tournament any corners students for twelve hours straight that is not in your contract if some gym has that in the contract I've never heard of that but like that is not in your agreement like that is not your coach's obligation he's doing it because he likes you that is a favor and as a student should be thankful because he's given his weekend away for you oh it promotes your school no it does it yeah I have a school no one cares no one cares if you want a Naga Belt man I'm serious like it doesn't it doesn't change my life man I put my my flag of the team I'm like man there's not one person who's ever joined the gym yeah as they saw you and it's a personal satisfaction I did for the phrase another feisty my students when I get satisfied I've been on the verge of tears watching so much too I'm so happy for them but that's my payment it's the satisfaction of watching them win yeah like financially there's no unless they're like fighting the you have seed making millions of dollars and you have a contour which most people don't have that their culture so they don't get paid if there's no there's no reward but in this students head I've literally I mean so I've heard it referred to as ROI like ROI students like return undergo you know I've heard that term thrown around before like it doesn't work that way man like it it's it's not like if you're good that's great and everything but that because there's an investment this is where the curling tongs you get the presentment comes from because I've been on both sides of us is that you know you have you have on one end you have highly committed cold shoot spreads and self then takes time away from his family I've done that I've had wars with like my ex-wife over like students that I was giving my time to which is like they're not paying you like eff them she was right you know but like I go at the time of like so emotionally invested like I want them to win and you know so there is resentment for the coach on that end and there's the other side of the story sometimes a student I mean if they move or financial to me I think the financial generally speaking is like the least common of the problems like oh poor you are like you could probably put a hundred bucks together 120 bucks is in the mud and if you walked up to your coach coach I only have 80 bucks this month but I'll clean the mats for you every day I think most gyms would probably agree to that so to me that's like the least common of all the five things you gave probably does happen though I'm sure happens but like the movie one does even count but like when it when it comes down to the student like not getting the training in I've been that bow like I've gone to I'm you know I've gone to gyms were for example one gym that I left I've what I'm known as a Colonel chambers or nothing called prone to my whole life but I've always had a good reason now I believe I did the right thing every time so the first time I remember like the gym only taught you Jitsu three times a week I'm in competition oh man like three times a week is not enough for me how many train twice a day I offer the coach can I teach class the other two days so I can train five days a week no teach for free there's a purple to time like I would like to teach ejj for free [ __ ] train five days a week no no that was my gym this is only going to be was like it was like to tell me this is how you're gonna train like I'm not gonna do this so I leave I left again after a while because it was a difficult moment that particular gym where I love the guys had no issues with them but everyone was either moving or injured or not training with me I was like a world champion at the time and I was left training with white belts so it's I didn't have every now and then I'd have like a good purple to roll with you know but it got to the point where I didn't have to cheat praying to training partners to to to to challenge me it just wasn't happening this went on for months and then I'm like I gotta go you know and I but like both times like I sat down with my coach and I had a very adult discussion with him why I was leaving it was not personal I loved thank you for everything but I'm this is the reason why I'm leaving you know and I think that's one thing that a lot of students miss is that you know like I think that the right thing to do is to load your coach in the ayat ly deleted because if you have a lake to stand normally and people have done that to me maybe once or twice yeah normally they kind of sneak out because it's a shame they don't know how but it'll have a leg to stand on right and when they don't have a leg to stand on they don't have arguments like the only thing to do was like kinda like and they you know which I have no issues with like the crate the part it drives me nuts is when they try to spin it on me like I'm the bad guy no no no no you weren't man enough to even you can even have the balls to tell me what the reason why you left right and that's where that resentment comes from but I I left and I one time I left the coach because he was losing his mind one time and one time it was just like I was tired of like the lack of you know organization professionalism to team I just wanted to you know do my own thing but like I managed to maintain good relationships with all these guys like I can go back to Brazil any of those schools I that and they'll greet me with a hug and I think it's in that's it's hard thing to do but I like I think it's important that even though you don't train with your instructor that you maintain a positive relationship because the end of the day I they did something for you but sure and if it's not maybe it wasn't what you wanted maybe it wasn't what you expected maybe you had a very high expectation of what a coach owes you right but the coach did something for you and for that reason like I think this do not to be respectful regardless of what you've tried you should always be like thankful ya know hundred percent everyone that's that's part of your martial arts journey whether you left them or not is part of who you are you can't pretend that that error of your time this exists you know myself I've actually stayed with every coach I've had until they moved away and it's happening with my wrestling coach I actually moved cities so I was supposed to go to a different high school but I didn't want to leave my coach hanging so I ended up driving an extra hour or actually I didn't have a driver's license back this and my brother would drive me an extra hour to go to school and come back and I had to put that I was living in my grandma's house so that I could still go to that high school in Miami because I was living in Fort Lauderdale but uh and it would have been easier for me to be in the other place because it wasn't as competitive as a regional tournament so I'd have been easier to get to States but I wanted to stick with my coach because I felt like I owed him everything you know and uh when I started training him in May I was there's my good Randy but he moved that to a couple years and since then this has been me and my brother so I really I haven't been coached by like a senior for a long maybe like four years total you know everything else is just like grappling magazine DVDs VHS tapes so from my perspective I've always like I've given a lot for my my athletes I've had people live in my house I know you don't say they got people who I make meals I had six at one point yeah so we do them do it yeah I don't do it it's a mistake right and I'll tell you why because the main problem people have in relationships from one of the main problems is they make assumptions yeah right and as a coach I assume that when I take you in under my wing and I'm gonna let you sleep in my house and get you sponsors and all that like you see me as a family member and we're like we're like a strong team yeah we know it's similar to a father-son really yeah it's very sad to foster that's a whole discussion because I notice most people who do fighting professionally do not have a father figure it's a very common thing it's a very common theme and essentially the structure is coming from that coach all right yeah I mean yeah it's actually parents bring their kids to martial arts because they need discipline yeah all right it's one of the key things so that bonding relationship can get funny sometimes right like I had a guy that was living in my house we found him sponsors we gave them jobs and yeah eventually got I know that guy too we got him a big fight he need to get medical bills paid to defy it the money on my pocket was like four grand or so like that and like with the money you make for the fight pay me back all right wins this fight disappears go to a different day goes to the different gym and then I was like you just leave the gym just because he didn't want to pay me back yeah but it turns out there was more to it my brother at the time with Jim was starting to do well he got himself a new car and the guy was talking crap I said how can master Marcos get himself a car a new car when he knows I don't have a car yet yeah and then when I was like yeah funny but because everybody was making assumptions on both sides of what roles we're gonna play in this relationship and they need to be ironed out and also like when you're talking with before if you're gonna be a pro you should be writing out a contract right Shannon standing out like in this is what I'm doing this is what you're expected to do you know these are the things I'm not doing you know that way there's no ambiguity you might say oh but how come we can't just trust each other some people are worthy of products some people I can't shake means the world like I feel like I'm that guy but not everyone operates like that because what happens is you create gray area yeah in gray area is where [ __ ] thrives yes you know you can did the trick in life I've coming I'm coming until very late age is that you have to make that gray area as narrow as possible to it disappears because that's when you're gonna have all the problems when you have this buddy-buddy relationship and we're family then people always create vacations that's a gray area right and those expectations are always not always on the same page so like this one thing I'm doing how the gim I'm writing a manual for students I've manuals for my instructors that were writing manuals for parents and for students so the students signs up he has no manual these are the rules of the gym yeah because I think that right there it gets rid of a lot of the gray area because now they know what to expect because the student that's a professor always assumes loyalty yeah and their students are thoughts on thing I'm gonna do what's best for me because there's that me attitude that going back to that cultural difference that we're describing like that it's become so prevalent in MMA and it's becoming more BJJ like what's best for me Amy and I get that but like where does that individuality starts crossing over with your morals where is that words like if there's a moment there I'm like okay me me me but this guy did a lot for me is it okay to dump this person who's helped me my whole life because the decision I'm gonna make next it benefits me you see I'm saying where is that line between what's best for you but also your morals and I think those lines are getting blurry and a lot of times in these discussions and it's a complicated one I go I go case by case like that all but I don't condemn people for leave it for better training I condemn people for leaving for vanity reasons like that right I have issues with that like you're gonna be pissed because I've literally had I'm not making this up I've literally had people walk up to me and tell me that they wanted to get right nope the reason was they're leaving is because they wanted me to promote and then make to no it would have special treatment and privilege I quote I'm quoting here and I goes what is privilege we go I want you to promote me and make me famous because they knew I hate it I said it like use honest at least like I just want to be famous and I'm like okay that's what you trained you do just afford well you're in the wrong place like it was that cost sort of thing because you don't appreciate the honesty I feel that it's it's the wrong reason and I don't want comma date that yeah so in that case it's kind of like one of those things where like we have very different there's visions of what we're going there and it's it's better that we part ways yeah so like we've talked a lot for the students I mean even though coach side but yeah for this to decide it's not like the coach can't do no wrong either right absolutely I think I stuck on here and there and there's things that there's good I think reasons for students to move to other gyms as well like kind of like we highlighted if you feel like you're on the wrong path or the coaches not helping you in the way you feel like you need to be helped that might be a time to go I might have to switch camps or at least have a discussion with the coach and say hey yeah it's going on but a lot of times I think people like to place the blame on somebody for bad performance and just think by moving the problems don't fix itself yeah it's always someone else's fault all right it's easier to do that you know so I think you have to be honest with yourself to like is it really because the coach is not showing up to practice and doing all the stuff and he's not bring his a-game or is it because I'm not bringing my a-game and I'm not being dedicated to training because I've had people leave I'd like the these are the guys that were coming in like twice a week and there are pro fighters and they're coming up barely I'm like I mean you failed yourself there no because I'm here every day as it people that don't listen to you do the least are the ones complaining when they lose I mean you don't trust me you don't listen me yeah barely training and now you're complaining that you lose like and it's it's a life it's a life issue too because it affects it's an attitude problem yeah it affects everything you do in life because I one lesson I learned from BJT BJJ early on it was that if I lose it is my fault yes okay maybe the ref is 1% responsible maybe my coach is 1% responsive it's max 1% the other like 8 95 percent of it falls on you man why are you worried about the weather why are you blaming the slippery mats why you blame you can blame the slippery mats you can blame the ref but you can't change the ref why are you worried about it you worry about things you can change what's immediately available for you change was funny like a lot I've heard that like people complain and blaming like the style of training or whatever and they're like meanwhile all his teammates are winning and he's the only one losing like if anyone's winning you're the one losing like what's the common denominator it's clearly not the training you know yeah but like there's it's it's it's it's something that people need to fix I think we all need to fix because and really hold you back it stops you from progressing the second you're blaming the world and not yourself like how do you progress yeah your stylist your brothers giving the power to the world thank you it's a great way to put it you're powerless that's exactly what's happening I think I believe it self responsibility yeah counterfeit is something kind of been exactly taking everything that happens your life is your fault yeah it's the most empowering thing you can do for yourself it's depressing in a way because if for you're so good yeah yeah it's always like me but it's the only way you know you may you've solved the problem yeah because otherwise if it's Roberts fault well I can't make Robert do anything so I'm the victim yeah it's the victim mentality and I don't like is it getting worse oh my good make them more I'm more like sensitive a I see it so much man and it's always something else I don't know like I think B if you get caught in the triangle you can blame your coach but the other day the next time you train it is you and your will and your commitment to not puttin yourself in that triangle that's gonna stop you from getting triangle together yeah you know it really it comes down to that man like I think that's probably 99% of the equation so if we wrap back around to the Creon [ __ ] I would say I would never tell people call that guy out as a Creon t if he left a team or a name column or make them feel bad or whatever that's silly that's immature you could be upset about it as a coach like someone leaves you and all that but at the same time there's things that you could have done to protect yourself of this like we're gonna discuss right like if students are leaving because there's drama in the gym that's your bad because you're the one you're the head of then of the the culture and if you're not every so often a bad seed comes in and you have to pluck it out or you have to fix problems I mean that garden you may be not keeping that culture clean yeah it's that's on you yeah and and some coaches are not training enough themselves and marawis had a long time ago we had one of our instructors we had a bunch of instructors he whenever spar and we're like man you got to do some sparring you're not and he wasn't like doing any other classes he would just show up teach and leave and it's like you got to put yourself out there because he was teaching some clown like stuff like that wouldn't work you know yeah says that you gotta put yourself out there and prove yourself maybe not educating yourself as a coach you aren't gonna fall out of date ads and your and your students are very well justified there's a man like we're stagnating here and that is one of them will add you brought that up because that is one of the old disco thinks difficult things d as a coach is keeping up with everything I've always had a policy of like doing like what I call like I'll focus on the middle because you have students that only want to do berry Bowl and I have students they only want to do leg locks I have students they only want to do self-defense and I have students that only wanna like train the guy but they only want to be on top like and all these different like subgroups of what what I teach right if I put all my focus on one thing right I'm gonna lose all the other ones yeah I I so yeah I have to make an effort to please the center but again like like how where is that you've had it's very difficult to find a balance when you because become so big it's like it's it's becoming like like little like many cultures of like different styles and it's and as a coach I try to be in the center as much as possible I'm trying to please the biggest audience possible but then you get resentment of people like oh we're not doing enough what else weeps I'm like yeah there's like three people in a group of 30 who can do a bring bold or repel sweep like I can teach class for three people and lose 27 or I can teach a class for 30 people and do something that maybe you know you don't want to do and then you can focus on your own specialties on the side because as a coach my job is to focus on the group and not on you superstar you know because that's like the mentality but like it's a very difficult balance to find between between keeping up with the evolution of the sport and also like looking at 99% of your clientele yeah are your students who don't come to the gym for that they come with a jump for a completely different reason know like you said the sport is evolving rapidly and there's so much to cover like a mirror like in a 90s half guard was such an easy position yeah deep yeah I got all these other stuff going on it says like just that one position alone there's so many sub specialties that you could focus you know but I got it to me as a coach I feel this kind of job like you're yeah I'm like study I study I watch matches I see what people do but incorporate whatever I like I mentioned this before but like I I I really want to do statistics on BJJ one day because I have like a like an idea of what's gonna happen just for my observations and it's important that people will preserve this interesting thing about like finding out where the sport is going it's people have like a laser-like you know focus on things that are either a unknown or they I've never seen before or like or very like aesthetically pleasing right and that's great and everything but a lot of times what that does it overlooks the reality of what is happening so a flashy takedown oh my god I really got to learn that one and then like you just show a single in class everyone's like rolling their eyes I already know that what was the number one take oh yeah you know it's like little things like that as a coach it's it's it's it's something you have to be very very careful with like not not losing track of what is actually efficient and important versus you know what is it that you know your students really want to learn yeah because a lot of times what they people sometimes they want the garbage oh yeah I remember teaching a private I won't say where was all the first privates ever taught in my life don't forget this and this guy wanted to learn like you started a private like this raw like I want to learn some the dark jujitsu I'm like a fresh black so and I'm like one of my first prime is maybe my first private ever I'm like so like some Dark Age it so I'm like I don't I should have asked them to define dark against it but like I just went like all I mission with my best stuff but do my only reaction was like I'm gonna show my best stuff so I showed some really cool like you know hand fighting tricks back take some good show like sneaky stuff I didn't do the details this goes on for the first 30 minutes right and then he's just I can see he's not liking it you know like a beginner right but I don't know I don't know what else is showing is too complicated I don't know to make it simple it wasn't liking it and then at one point stop deprived it like to be like halfway through and you go that Raul what if someone attacks you and your girlfriend well I'll be like try to put myself between me and her maybe get her to run if possible depends if he's on during all I'm just going with the most reasonable rational decisions for me to make in that situation yeah what if it's in a dark alley and you can't run and I'm like whoa that case I hit the guy and like take him down and protect her and you know do this and that what if there's like what if you in a dark alley there's no way to run and you're surrounded by four men and all four of them are judo black those when is this what situation is this happening and that's when it clicked man like this guy just wanted me to [ __ ] him like he just wants to like the crab the non since I give him my best stuff and just like I don't want to look at that so I just don't make I literally start making stuff up like I'd be like this this and that and just like knocking all of them out like all these [ __ ] moving love it it's like he's like he had this like shaoling kind of like you know kung fu movies kind of vision of how a fight took place yeah and he that's kind of what he wanted and I guess what that's what you meant by Dorothy Jude so I'm assuming and this a little bit of that maybe DJ community I feel like there's a lot of like people that they prefer like the knowledge in porn but it's like it's like 1% of the equation why are you not looking at the big numbers you know and exactly yeah because it's excitement takes prevalence over you know efficiency sometimes I guess yeah you want statistically you want to do the moves that are the most common that work well yeah you know because I mean Marsha was an arm drags right rear naked choke they're not fancy but it works Roger Gracie literally a career out of choking everyone probably with that choke that if you if I showed in my even my wife will to look at that choking go like roll their eyes like ah this is so boring you know what you basically Mao people go boom boom across to me it's a cross it's a it's the first choke you learn when the first chokes you learn in BJJ and and it's I'm not saying that that you know you should stop doing everything to focus but like it does say something about I don't like old and new I like like efficient versus not efficient yeah and I like to focus on high percentage boosts to me an intelligent class intelligent curriculum is focused on high percentage moves above all that's the highs it's a hierarchy which I don't like to use best and worse but there's a hierarchy of you know like the most efficient down the ranks and I think your your investment goes accordingly yeah because you want to put yourself in a position where you could execute moves like when I was coming up with the whole team or trap system think it was because that last ACC did in 2007 where I grappled you and Zanjeer I did like it was like 60 minutes of grappling for four matches so it's getting over times left and right triple overtime all the time double time yeah I'm like I need to finish people because I'm gonna i'm running a marathon where everybody else is doing the sprint yeah so I'm like what and I started thinking back from my wrestling days game plans I'm like all right what's the submission that I could hit from the most positions yeah and then to me tomorrow yeah that's true so like why would I focus on doing flying triangle you can only do for my feet and I could get really good good for move yeah beautiful move but yeah it's a limited use case right whereas Kimora I can do literally anywhere so I've a really good Kimora I could I'm dangerous all over the place you know I'm actually like common move but just very efficient and I can execute from anywhere you know so I I agree with you there like basic stuff you usually works well because it's basic so it implies it's simple to set up and execute but most people think oh it's bait if a white bug can do it that means it's not good like that no it means it's that good the technique is so efficient that even someone with a very basic understanding can do it to you yeah right back to me basic means powerful yeah a complex move requires someone with extreme technical knowledge to be able to execute it so you said very limited use case and and it would simulate the thing is that goes back that laser-like focus I was talking about so you watch and see you watch a highlight of it say Mike much too messy and you know meowww going at it right like the highlight shows like what is not the reality of it I sure like the very like compartment aspects of the match but if you really pay attention the most matter who you think of like the most most technical grapple in the world if you look at what he's doing about I would say about 95% of what they do is extremely simple and then there's a 5% was more sufficient more sophisticated but it stands out yeah the thing is a 5% stands out if you just grab a caller and like shift your weight to your hip it this way so you don't fall over to your right it's so simple that most people don't even notice that yeah of course well he's doing it yeah so but like it doesn't stand out it does there's no story for that right it's only the one thing that no one's ever seen before for example or like whatever it is aesthetically pleasing that that makes that takes some you know that makes them that make some noise like so to speak and I'm very observant of these things because you know you don't want to ignore you want to pick you look at the whole picture yes the whole is looking at the whole pictures actually either they report it's like highlight your suit I had a rule when I fought I never watched highlights of my opponents everyone don't watch highlights if your opponent don't do it because it messes you are you like if you know it we got oh man I got so good it makes people look so much better than they actually are you know so careful I think going back to that those basic fundamental moves my goal is to try to make a basic move more complex by noticing the smaller details right like someone like Roger Gracie with his crossed rope while it has some nuggets of knowledge I'll be one you know yeah that he's able to pull on that most people don't know but the move is so efficient that you could do it poorly and still finish yeah but if you know every moving part it becomes fatal you know if you tap in world-class black belt with it over and over you probably figure something else there's something and like I remember this vividly now because I use this down I've learned it's like being on the other end but um first hand it goes and the second hand goes I have my face down like everyone does right and it's always difficult at that second hand in because the face is down and then I garage it away I remember he's got his four I'm gonna read this cheat ball and there was so much pressure on my cheekbone this way that it was lifting my jaw and it was so it's hurting so much like if I don't move my jaw like his I feel like this this guy was going in like it was gonna break my face if I it was I remember biblic was very painful here and that's when I lifted my chin my neck and I realize what he was doing he was doing something that is not illegal yeah it's like frowned upon in BJJ which to me like another people of mine if it's not illegal what's the matter yeah you know like I put my face there who's responsible for that hey he's not responsible my face I put my face in front of the choke yeah it's me if I don't care about my face why should he care exactly we're in the final of the world okay I'm saying so I put my face down and then he's like oh I do I can I had to lift her jaw we're gonna break your cheekbone okay goodnight my neck yeah you know but that's that's BT but it's like such a it's a basic detail yeah but you don't learn that it's simple but you don't learn that if not from experience i no one ever taught me that you know like it's one of those things that I'm pretty developed or maybe someone taught him what it was it's simple yeah it's just learning and practicing more and noticing those details like for me and I've been teaching the Camorra for so long it's like 13 years or so that it gets better every time I guess I am i understanding I move increases as I understand what leverage is yeah and how to place it like the first release of my DVD is a little bit outdated and that's why I've put those updates and because now the newer understanding is way better like your iPhones get out good updates yeah yeah you can add those up and you got tweaked the moves but it's taken again something that's simple and like how do we make this more efficient or I gotta say make it simple move complex right so that we add more moving parts to it but each moving part we add increases the leverage and spaces the efficiency and that's what most people don't get because if I must people get the ballpark like the you know if I glanced at a painting real quick look away tell me what you saw right okay I can name a few details but the guy who has a real understanding to tell you everything about the painting yeah colors the technique who was the painter the canvas is on he understands every moving part like it's so that's the type of understanding I feel specialist yeah there's that something like Roger Gracie I'm sure he's got like a million little tricks from that cross drug he does you know or Marcel you'll see with your arm drag you with the Darce choke you know Bravo you know like there's stuff that you do that when you teach your brother I hadn't anybody else to him but that comes from people who work on something for so long even if it's basic and more so that ends yeah and and I thought I'm such a huge fan of experience now like I'm very suspicious of people that learn through observation only because like I I would this I've all done this you're in bed before we go to bed and you're thinking about moves right and then you think of a move I'm like God right and then I've made I'm not proud of this but I've made that mistake actually showing that over practice it's it's incredibly this honest it's stupid and like I've done it maybe once but like it's you have to test it ok that's great you thought of your theory yeah that's awesome you know like let's put it in practice right and then when you put it to test chance like 9:00 on the 10 it doesn't work and then truly because you're not factoring all these you don't see what you don't see yeah it's dream to Jitsu idea no no no you don't know what's gonna happen when you react this way like I would say about I've come up with a lot of moves you have to we all have right I've sitting maybe not 19 more like a hundred percent of the stuff I've come up with came up when I was trying to do something I'm trying to do a your block a I end up with me but maybe your block B I go to see and I do something in them in the heat of battle that works really well and then like oh man that's a good move and I start doing them more and more and now I'm like trying to break it down and next thing you know then I explained in class yeah and all the times you explained the class you understand it better it's funny the other day I come up with a move and I got it's a great move you know I like yeah yeah just start inside do the other day like yeah as an old rested look I'm like it's happened a few times I come over and I think I came up with it it's like it's something that's existed for forever but even the dark I thought I came up with the doors actually I really did because I started doing in Birds I've never seen it before I started doing accidentally I was going for the Bravo chocolates where the name came from the Bravo choke right and how I was killing people with it in the ghee and I was training nogi like I'm looking for Adela Pell and I couldn't get in one day I just learned you know as Bravo choke originally then I liver found out there's a guy and you yeah doors I think his name is yeah he came up with a move before I guess and he and he was we don't know what the setup was completely different but um I just go with Darcy's just easier yeah but uh yeah man but like I think my experience at least these innovations they come from practice and failure more often yeah like to do some moves I actually worked at yeah I believe it yeah but it's like you said it's very a lot of times when you come up with it doesn't work right like oh you know what the grip is that gonna work or something goes wrong yeah but it's like whatever it's just a shot in the dark like I don't see if it works or not but yeah usually is when you recognize opportunity to network yeah you're rolling you're like whoa this is something that I never noticed until today yeah yeah it's because you get you get a reaction that you're not used to and you have to improvise on the spot some of the best scrappers i've ever met were people that were geniuses at improvising improvising as a spot like they just knew you confront them with a new situation and you don't have to go back the drawing board or as the coach they just immediately react improvise improvise improvise and I think that's very that's creative that's a fundamental as one is I'm so in love with it is because it is such a creative art like I really feel like you know rabbits too creative art in the sense where like there's always something new new detail different way of doing something there are things that people doing like that I when I start a training or consider to be wrong they don't do that now people are turning it around and making it efficient you know I today I taught a MMA class I was teaching my students to cross their feet on the back which is like BJJ don't do 101 you know but I argue that in some situations crossing your feet on the back is the right thing to do yeah so long as your opponent isn't have his butt on the ground that's the exception but in other situations you cross your feet I crossed my feet on arm bars all the time you know the pin helped my point is trying to escape I was learned never cross your feet never is a word I don't like to use in BJJ anymore because I've been it's been wrong too many times you know like never changes and next thing you know someone finds an exception and to me that's one of the most endearing aspects of BJJ but once again these things come from primarily from practice and I think that's that's the one thing there are a lot of people they say I think that there's the the artificial injection we were talking about yeah like that's it's helpful it gives you ideas it opens new doors but I cannot learn jujitsu from a video a book like it's gonna help you open doors think of things differently but you're gonna learn by primarily by losing by failing yeah I think the negative lessons I call them negative lessons learning how not to do it is more important than getting it right because it teaches you how not to do something it's in third that's where I'm thinking like I know my brother and I we used to drill out a slow-rolling sometimes just to mess around but if the purpose of the floor was to burn something you right yeah so we wouldn't mess around and we would do things we wouldn't normally do like I'll put myself in a vulnerable position or I'll go for something like right maybe like I was told not to do that let me try it yeah this thing I'm not supposed to do and now sometimes you know there's a reason that you're not supposed to learn that all right times like you know what there is a good reason to do this it's just that a lot of times people learn by tradition yeah you know and they don't question the tradition so then nobody ever advances from it you know that's a big one man like it's funny because I think I noticed how people learn by tradition and the funny thing about these things is the older it is the more you know more of a truism it becomes like oh it's better that people need to do this for a hundred years Rob clearly it's correct and like no it's because this it's five people been you know doing it the hard way for a hundred years and I love to find these and we find them all the time yeah you know what you're talking about crossing ankles i crossing equals all time and i just never put it in front of him I put it on the side it works great move it very flexibly could cross up really high the stomach you bring it up in and he can't float Locke you understand why a lot of people they don't get the wide they just said coach said don't cross your feet like oh I guess you never crossed you never like no there's a reason why there's a Foot Locker full luckily it happens when the feet and it's like people or something like oh you can't submit sorry for the closed guard like I came from the top yeah there's ways I can do it you know so like a lot of times I try to challenge those things you should yeah and I wear how true it is I mean because and sometimes I find that the more taboo it is the more reward that can be that has a lot of people come that really uh next year they don't bother me that's bad that there might be a really good nugget here yeah and no you're right and and thinking like that is a poor man I I had a student of mine it's a funny story to me but like he will like he's a big guy right every tournament he get on top or inside the closed door Ezekiel boom finish big no no all right man good job good win but don't do that again okay because you know he's gonna get your back is getting armbars good okay coach okay coach won't do it won't do it second fight Bowie sorry coach circles no it's okay man you want it's okay don't do it again no third fight he wins the holes are like you know what I'm gonna stop correcting this guy I wouldn't teach it in class I don't teach any class but if someone's doing something can't argue with success yeah Duarte Lee's made a career out of giving his back or to tell he's fairly successful got a lot in a lot of titles in Brazil I have seen I'm not gonna mention names what he has done to world class crappers in the gym with I'm him some big big names man he was tearing them apart stupid because he's going where no one's ever gone before and I don't know how to react now never been put in that situation right so now I'm confronted with situations he's very familiar with him that I am not familiar cuz like no one ever try to pull guard by giving me the back not for beginners III I don't like to give like a white canvas to beginners beginners to me I like children like you don't tell your eight-year-old like do whatever you want with your life no no shut up do homework clean your room you know eat your vegetables but I guess after a certain age when you're 18 you're kind of like I hope I trained you well yeah and off you go you know and I think purple bell does that cut off with me kinda that's when I start giving them a little more freedom and like let them develop and create yeah you can always tell people I mean how do you believer in specialization yeah I like but like you know my body can't specialize it true because you don't even know what there is but like once you start moving into deeper blues then there's time work specialization will start special impetus yeah good competitors or sensually have a few trick moves right there yeah three or four moves are really good at better than everybody else and then they have a rounded out game but like they're leaning on those strengths yeah it's not like like we're in time before everybody wants to learn to do flashy thing or whatnot and like the white boat fallacy is like oh I want to try to learn all these moves they've seen on YouTube but you're gonna suck it although cuz you're sprinting out here your your talent pool you need to learn the basic game the positions how to move around and once you get that find out okay where it's gonna be my specialty second school you get a degree and one thing you don't get a degree in math history science all at the same time yeah you don't have enough time well in a competitive world here's a thing like that like I probably wrap it up after that one but in a competitive world you know specialization makes sense you go to a doc you have like you know some kind of throat infection you want to go to a specialist you don't want to bug I was a brain surgeon you know it's you know if you need brain surgery you don't want a guy doing it you don't to go to an ob/gyn or an ortho you know so they have like a fundamental understand their brains certainly better than me but you want to go to a specialist right I will say this so for a coach I think it's important not to be too specialized so you give your students the tools because I've seen that two guys with amazing half guard world-class half guard and then you see these guys they're like they're not meant for half guard you know and then they're in a division where the half guard is not so common and yeah they're getting mauled because that's all they've learned they go they don't never they never work you know Fitness emissions from close word I like to give my beginners at least a fundamental foundation and then half like I said like a blooper boys kind of like they can specialize and well like as a coach I tried to give little taste of everything yeah try my best for that just that's what your claim is you know that you're giving ballpark and then that's how like most of my guys when they start specializing in stuff is because they went to the curriculum and we're teaching general stuff and then they found something that click with them like one of my guys it was like the first major success story have we started doing the curriculums like mm was Devin get she has a crazy guilty unbelievable as a Bluebell he tapped that Black Belts we go to competition it says he had a black belt level pretentious yeah guilty but the rest of his game was oh hey but either got a guilty god help you I mean but we were just teaching it correctly I mean that one move clicked and the curriculum kept rotating we're going you old things but he's like I don't like this guilty I'm just going to spend all my time guilty no I think that's how generally people's games are gonna work and your job as a coach is not to force something down there necessarily it's like here's your best of all excuse your fruits and then eventually you gotta fight you know I'm a carnivore okay yeah you know but I mean like you gotta give him a little bit of everything because otherwise getting then you're forcing everybody to play a particular game and usually body type is a big factor like you said you know like if I try to play rubber guard game I'd be a disaster you know and all the heavy weights I'd probably lose yeah you know so like you gotta be flexible no I I 100% agree anyway Dave this is a pleasure this is our episode five I hope you guys enjoyed we'll be mixing it up between me and Dave be s in here jujitsu and grappling and MMA and just talking fun stuff and we'll have a guest every now and then and yeah I had a lot of fun thank you so much Dave I think there's a blast and yeah I'll see you guys next time yeah make sure you guys follow us on social media we're an instagram twitter facebook youtube and if you're in iTunes or the Google Play Store you can subscribe to our channels there and get the latest updates see you guys next time [Music]