BTG 08 - Mikey Musumeci

[Music] hello everyone this is episode 8 of breaking the guard we have a very special guest here Mike Musto messy baddest guy in the lightweight division the BJJ world Mikey welcome thank you for having me yeah you know I think you're one of the American world champion so we got Rob being the second one so it's pretty cool that both you guys there now I'm American myself so represented but I wanted to start off with you because you're a lightweight I know going into the martial arts usually there's a reason that you jumped into it I know like for myself with self-defense purposes I was getting bullied in school and stuff like that and I saw a lot of stuff so this is wondering like your origin story so there's be like how you got into the martial arts yeah so um my dad always loved like MMA and UFC and since I could crawl I was watching UFC alright so uh my dad like training Muay Thai and there was a local like MMA Jitsu gym by my house and I was about four years old and I started really nice yeah so I've been training since I could walk and it's badass that's like this next generation how old are you Mike I might not 22 yeah man you're super young so yeah like you're the future right like when I was started I started like 15 I think and I always thought to myself man I wish I could have started younger David touched on this briefly a while ago is that everyone thinks all to start your kids on it's the best and I think for a school for life I think it's important having BJJ or in sports in general but as far as coming out with big craft in the world champion I think the reason why you started at 4 and you went on with and you're still you're gonna be in this the rest of your life most likely is because you deep down in there that's who you are like you know I think that a lot of people start training as teenagers and then they stick to it because at that age you kind of like you're there because you want to be there but when you're forced to be there yeah exactly is there a child you'd be there because your parents are I think that's why actually does that yeah it's exactly that you you you wanted to be it was fun for me and but I would also view with what you said yeah I think you said it that um I didn't really start like like thinking about being a world champion or anything tell us about ten eleven you know just those early years or like hobby for like a hobby for me but um I feel like this training since I'm so young my body got molded what jiu-jitsu like my body just moves in like from jiu-jitsu you know what I mean like just all those years your body just is deformed oh yeah you know yeah you're making all these adaptations yes just exactly so long so your first art was jiu-jitsu then that's it I used to play baseball outside with friends and pretty much so as Benji just the whole way through and they I'm just curious because my brother he's got three kids and he's having a little bit of that struggle to get them in but at the same time he's trying to do that balance where he doesn't want to force him to do it but then he's trying to bang all the fruit to get them in there so lately what he's been doing he's been putting them to watch martial art movies so he's got them on the karate yeah Ninja Turtles and now like every time they watch it they go I want to do more Jannah there we know he's trying to play so I'm curious like how did your parents enjoy fishing so again like so where I trained in New Jersey I had a friend like my best friend that I went to school with trained also so it was more of like a hobby with my friends so I think that's what kept me in it I feel like if you don't have friends like your friends don't train like it's gonna be hard to stay out that's why you create those bonds inside the gym going to the gym is easy then it can make it easier yeah exactly you know you want to go to the gym just to see your friend it's a form of socialization as well as training yeah I think that's I think that's I always say this I think that's the main reason why beach people are so drawn to this is because it creates a lot of these social networks and bonds that really people want to come back not just that the art is incredible but it's a fun play the gym is a fun place to go to yeah yeah when you go to the gym you should feel like oh I can't wait like the Train and like when the time is done you should like oh man now I got to go home yeah I shouldn't be like when you get to the gym oh man I have an hour of training this sucks right it's not a workout it doesn't like to feel like a workout it feels it's like part of your day it's you know it's somebody enjoyment yeah I think I was like kind of a from the pipe and I was talking about when he did interview were when he had people he was excited to train with the night before that's how it should be where you're excited to show up the train back so so Mikey you've been I mean you've been in the gym so you're 23 1984 so 19 years a long time thank how do you feel as far as mentally and physically as in like those Jiu Jitsu still mean to you I mean you mention at 11:12 you want to be a world champion change yes right is that that so the 11 12 year old Mikey is different from the 9 year old Mikey how does the mike the 23 year old Mikey feel about digital today mentally and physically I wanna hear both sides okay so it took me a while like when I first won the back but world's the first time I almost quit GG too because I felt like I was just my whole goal is just on my back the world and I I hated training I had the mindset where I just I was focused on a goal instead of what I had the wrong reasons I was training I was training to try to win something instead of training for the lifestyle training to enjoy training like when I was a kid when I was a kid at my favorite thing in the world was just to watch videos and I had a stuffed animal in my room and I would draw on the stuffed animal moves because I was just so excited it was animal that was bigger than me because I was so small and I was just trying to like do things trying to draw X card that when you mention robber actually we're just talking about this the other day which is that when you set your goals and your accomplish them there is sometimes a crisis point like what do you just because your bull shouldn't be it go that's what I had to learn the hard way feel like in life the best way to learn things is making mistakes and I really had the wrong mindset when I won worlds the first time and it was just because since I was like 14 15 in my mind I was always like okay if I win blackbar worlds I'll be happy so then I won Bluebell every year I won the world's consistent consecutively 2016 only noogie but then 17 18 19 all gay and every year I won the worlds in Bluebell bluebells I was like okay the next year I'm gonna be I want Bluebell well okay purple ball I I didn't feel anything buzz like okay when I get the black ball I'm gonna be happy so then I went over about worlds and then I got my brown on the podium okay now I'm gonna be happy when I win black boards next year brown belt black on the podium then when I went black parole I felt nothing and I was just like man like this is what I built up in my mind so much that was gonna change my life like I'm gonna feel so much difficult to questions now what's the next goal because you achieve your main goal of being a black world champion and then I want to follow that up with another question because I think that's I want to try to get to some yes yeah okay so my next goal I really don't live life with goals anymore I have obviously every day I'm going 100% effort and I feel like every opportunity that happens is gonna happen and I'm not gonna know exactly I can't control the opportunities that are gonna happen yeah but there's gonna come that's what I've noticed how life is now I keep seeing it over and over everything that happens to me it just happens and they I can't overthink the fuser in the moment yes living in the moment obviously I'm super neurotic and OCD and obsessive like it's really hard for me to live in a moment but I am at the point where I could accept that well I just have to work hard every day and I think that one thing I would like to just one thing I think as a goal of mine in competition today is just to show like a respectful side of you Jitsu and show like not all the black board world champions after like open their ghee their chests and like I mean I feel like I feel like why does a medal give someone their right to like how the above other people and just act like it you know what I mean this is a wise man you're too smart for your age much wisdom here I'm sure oh yes everything you're saying makes perfect sense are you agree with it we've talked about these symbols of all time it was interesting when you say cuz you've been treated you're very young you're 23 but you've been training for about my goals I'm like old I'm young you know what I mean because you've trained for so long like I I consider myself in the game a long time but I'm 24 years so I'm not that much yeah ahead of you but the lessons that you learn the mat are very deep that's all - transcend so it's showing you with them like just the fact that you've learned from early age that achieving your goal is not the end all things right like we talked about this thing it's people live their life not knowing that yes because most people never reach their goals and they think oh you know my life sucked because it a mutually going like no you couldn't get it Rob business said the same thing you know he want them absolutely okay now what look if you're hungry you're gonna still be hungry we know you've had that one meal and people don't people skip that man like this is like I I wanted to follow this this theme up was like I'm so glad just said because that's exactly the answer I was trying to get out of you like I said I think this is what Mac is gonna say but you said something I can live with that like I can accept it and to me that shows so much wisdom because their ambition is a thing that is infinite you know this perfectly well there's no such thing is you can win 15 black the world titles Mike and I guarantee you you're gonna feel the exact same way you feel now it's not gonna change you can feel happy and content for the day but if I think I know I think I know you well enough to go it's gonna last about 24 hours you're gonna be in the class then the next thing and then the next day you're like what's next so here's my question to you what is what is happiness to you like where's my keys happiness in jiu-jitsu like word is is there an end to okay this is the ultimate so when I almost stopped raining like when I won roads and I almost quit jiu-jitsu because I just hated Cheney I went back to myself and I was like what did why did I like change it and I tried to become the kid again that I was like drilling with this stuffed animal like excited to just learn and excited to just figure out new positions so happiness for me is going to the gym training and figuring out new positions and just drilling and I don't really the goal winning worlds is always oh of course but how I see winning worlds now is just showing me that the positions I'm work that I'm practicing and training that I'm on the right track with them that I have answers to all my opponents because that's essentially what you do too is right we have our position they have their reaction to our position yeah if we have an answer to their reaction our position should work if we don't have an answer to their reaction that means that our positions flood you know we have to figure out an answer to their there's a way out yes that's only thing I enjoy about competing is that and it's it's such a more it's a more noble and it's a more realistic goal to because when world's is not fulfilling like I said it's fulfilling for the moment but what you're describing is infinite you can be 80 years old and you're still good and let's say you could be on the master ad let's say you have the health right you would still be discovering things yeah exactly it's an infinite goal and then when you have a goal that's gonna be exactly they say the finish line keeps moving I think that's really where happiness lies you have meaning you have an objective but you never quite really get to it like it's always like it's the chase that makes you happy yes that's before me like my happiest I think it's ooh or dreaming about achieving things was try working to achieve things it's not the achievement itself exactly the work the process the process is the best part of it cuz I could just buy a medal online yeah and I could tell everybody hey I won this and most people would have no that doesn't bring any real satisfaction though you know it's like he said it's the adversity you have to overcome that makes that journey and like what you just said like you could tell people that you won the medal like also like what I've learned is not really caring what other people view us or like see like you have to have self happiness in yourself right you're not winning a medal to make people like you or to see you differently because the people that see you differently because of a medal aren't people you want in your life correct like if you lose a competition if you have friends before and then you lost would you want someone in your life that is of course toward you in your window I'm so happy that you see that because most mostly but your age will not be able to say this I learned this was a very late in life like I 23 I was not thinking like you know so I'm happy how that mindset because it's so true like you you know usually it I imagine like you know you know this now you're on top of the world you're winning everything you got a lot of people around you like who's your friend exactly our descent and it's it gets harder and harder at the more successful you become the higher it becomes because people are incredibly good at pretending you know you don't know where they are so my advice always goes like the people were there for you before yeah are the ones that are the ones always gonna be that nobody it's you said you have an incredible insight for you know someone who's so young because it's true you know the if you're not self actualized self-motivated you know and your happiness doesn't come from within you'll never find ways to fill that gap no matter what you do something that I've also learned like as I've got a little older is you don't you don't learn that much from people you learn more but you don't learn how much for people what to do you learn more from people what not to do and how not to behave you know I call that a negative lesson but I feel like I've learn more negative lessons in my life then positive and I feel like we could actually that we as people learn more as negative lessons well it's like when you discover a new sweet Mikey you didn't discover the first sweep you really discover a thousand other ways of not doing that sweep that's what training is about is discovering the ways of not to do it until like the correct answer is two ways of viewing position like what you just said the interpretation really that's like I I enjoyed that process it's only just me and Dave always like talk about like I mean I'm gonna generation like we didn't have YouTube galore like we had to we've go to tournaments we'd watch it maybe a magazine oh yeah I move the gym at Rochester figure it out and it's like oh that's so much harder true but it was fun like you had to figure things out like what it's like fed to you I don't that's what it's not as fun and like okay as a new position I don't know it's not the same it's just I didn't see it doesn't seem as special something discovering for yourself something interesting that like what you just said that's interesting is I really don't like to watch that much you just do and more like to learn new positions because I feel like it stops me from autumn like figuring stuff out like self on my own I feel like that stops your innovations when you're watching video as a physician of coffee yeah instead of you're using your body and your body doing a then you figure it out by your body doing it is a conscious yes and I think that at least I mean from myself most of my leaps in jiu-jitsu came from me discovering things on the mats myself I'll see something I can watch you do something on you know on a video and go that's great but this isn't I'm really gonna learn them I don't feel like I learned that way I learned by being on the mats and making those mistakes and as exactly you're describing like I not only do I enjoyed that process I thought it's that's how I learned I do get ideas from you're not a non maker no there but like I it's it's like when I go for like if I see a video like I haven't I do I never thought about that grip for example but I have a harder time assimilating that position in my game than I do if I'm actually on the mats just failing it's funny because when I learn like whenever I learn a new position like I'm the slowest learn out of everyone that I learned with it's because I can't mimic a move without I have to um when I learn a move I have to understand every part of the body and why I'm doing this move in everything about the move for me to do the move so I can't I learn really really slow yeah but when I learn the move I learn it better than everyone that I learned it with because I understand every reason why I'm doing the move in the whole process of you learning practical yes and then I don't even try to even replicate the move I just try to incorporate it into how I can use it in my jujitsu you know you did bring a good point that I liked which was that people who tend to mimic others or copy and you know watch YouTube videos they lose a little bit of the creative process themselves I feel like the people that can do that as well or the more athletic type fight um the worst athlete ever I have no idea my god I'm so bad as an athlete any sport I did I I'm horrible you know so um you Jitsu for some reason works for me but um I feel like those people that are super athletic you could just bring them in the gym and just teach them toreano nope oh hey and then they can go to tournaments and just do it yes yeah normally the ones that don't care about it right and but but like me like we have to understand every like Oh Gert let's understand like the exact angle of the grip on the knee and understand like when this leg is shown the other leg is weak and all the correlations just to do the same position that they did so let me ask you this Mike you what is it that makes you unique cuz I everyone who knows you knows you're unique guy in a lot of ways like not only because of your um your mindset like how well you do when everything you've ever competed pretty much like you very rarely lose where I was last time you lost ah the last time I lost was 2017 Panem's dude you will see I lost a rough decision to a kind and clever okay it was like I thought it was not yeah it was before I win the world's okay so you don't move before that probably years with knows I never seen you lose like I've been falling since you were a purple girl I never see you yeah Apple Brown I never lost a fight in purple so my question is I'm sure Dave and you know everyone else was to know this what is the key because there's a number of ingredients in this equation this is not a one thing like all he drills all day or all he's gifted or what it's there's a lot of things going on in if you had to pick like what is the cornerstone that makes Mikey okay so something that I learned from my young age is that you can't look to your coach to make you a world champion everyone wants their coats to say make me a world champion and then they don't if they don't win they blame their coach oh they didn't do this for me they didn't do that to me you know you're absolutely right so what you learn is and you're not even a coach yet I do see in this overhead getting your own culture and your coach supplements your game your coach is just a supplement to your game but you have to be in control of yourself and you don't look to other people to make you who you are you have to built you have to work in yourself to get to where you are you know and that's what the biggest thing it's accountability we're just talking about that I always say this because I've gotten that a lot everyone has dealt with this people who they blame the ref law not change coach they follow the training partners the girlfriend to whether it is slippery math everyone is to blame but that's that's the living mentality because the in their minds they look for excuse instead of thinking in their mind wait a second there is no excuses I have to fix everything I'm doing and then I'll improve you know so I I'm so glad you said it because I always felt it I think that everything you do all these ingredients are important like you you're not you know you may not be the most athletic guy but like I'm pretty sure you gotta be I mean at least your flexibility your my whole life I have that deformed body from but you but you have like all these in Greece but I truly believe that the key ingredient for success and about anything you do in life not just jiu-jitsu is exactly that is accountability accountability blame yourself and it's a hard thing to do it's Sox believing myself but only point zero zero one percent could do that yeah it's a hard thing to do because it's like it's my fault like even I try to explain to my personal life sometimes I get something bad stuff that's happened around me I always go back to myself and go how could I have fixed that two years ago you know like how what did I do that polkas if I'm here I'm here I'm already responsible for that like what they're like what could I have done different what can I do differ in the future so I think that's absolutely the the right mind mindset yeah and I think you said it's difficult because it's about all the ego right nobody likes to accept the blame only see Phelps because then it's like that means if I could have it was my fault that means I could have fixed this X amount of years ago that's a lot to swallow so most people like you know what I'm gonna blame so-and-so or this the biggest flaw in humans is what ego the biggest blonde you know everyone's so afraid like everyone's ego is just so big even in like in old times like Napoleon Knight invading Russia like and then Hitler tries to do the same thing as their ego so high that they don't they can't nationally think in their mind across their judgment and that's a flaw humans I believe is ego and the more we can see okay we have ego and how to level ourselves like we could become way more productive energy this didn't like it like we we talk about ego me and did have this conversation well because I I the word ego is a word I wish we have two words to describe to me the evil you're describing is a bad eco the one that makes you overconfident blame the world if you beat me in practice I'm mad at you not at myself yes but then there's this other ego I've heard like I think Frank Herrera told me the story is a boxing coach Aaron Burr is never very successful boxing coach and they asked him what you trained a lot of successful boxers and it goes like this what is the key ingredient of a better fighter needs right to be any goals like ego and I think he's talking about the positive ego that it goes I refuse to lose obsessive obsessive nature that you go back to the gym every day and work hard when you're tired when you don't feel good when you don't that's the that's another day yeah but like it's ego that you're angry at yourself for not being better like someone passes your guard and you go home and you're livid you can't can't I I mean sometimes I'd lose in practice and I couldn't sleep at night like I think that's an ego that if you channel that in a positive way then it could be it's amazing it's a catapult you know and I agree I mean in general like all these emotions you have there's a good and bad to every emotion yeah and if you don't learn how to Chandler property like you were saying then it could be a driving force you know like balance yeah so like I think it's important to use those emotions wisely in ways are gonna push you into action that's gonna favor you in the achieving your goal sometimes people have emotions they're deconstructive you know like binge eating or you know people started smashing stuff when they get angry that's not constructive you know so but I think that's just part of being emotionally mature learning how to and yeah because most people think emotions are not controllable and I disagree with it I believe they are completely curable I know this because this year when I cut to ruse to eat it was crazy the cut at the end I cut my hair and at the end I was in a lot of pain but um what I learned about pain is that it's there and you don't touch like you just let it sit if you try to fight the pain you don't you take it takes so much more out of you the pain but if you just let it sit and you don't touch it and you just stare at it and you'd say okay the pain sitting right here and you don't touch it you could just you're it's just a feeling like it's irrelevant like the it's amazing that you see I can I get you're able like remove something that would normally corrode someone there but your what you know when you're saying when you're staring and those what you're doing you're actually removing an incredibly negative feeling that normally permeates every cell everyone's body and they're not able to think because of pain or anger what you're doing my you because they make it so big you're pushing it aside that's outside of yourself of your ultimate goal which is like I gotta win this fight and you're just like you happen to be here that's that let's get let's get on with work that's not your honor you don't let it destroy you that's why I've learned like recently like how to handle emotions better you know as I'm getting older like the pain that was the biggest thing that I've learned and how I can so irrelevant it's a feeling just like every other feeling we're talking about pain are you talking about the physical pain of cutting weight or either psychological there's so many types of pain but just every type of pain you're feeling nervous you feel anxious like to do something like you have to do like for me I'm very introvert so when I first started doing seminars I was very very uncomfortable to do seminars like talking to a lot of people that I've never met before like it was very hard for me so I used to just pinch my arm like uncomfortable you know but uh now I just okay I feel nervous or I have anxiety I just I accept it okay I have that it's just there doesn't matter though you accept it yeah it's just sitting right here you don't touch it if I build it in my mind I wanna have this feeling I have this then it paralyzes you because you let it paralyze you that you have control of letting motion or feeling paralyzed you or just let it be there yeah you don't tell you just let sit there you know that's why I've learned to handle those stressful situations and anytime I body or mind are going through a really hard endeavor you know that's what I figured out you're able to remove your sofa cuz it's stopping you from achieving your yeah that's a beautiful thing my god I hope that people listed this realize what amazing advice that is like for myself I'm listening to you and like I'm learning this is a truly man but because yeah you're right like you have to because you can't change the world you can't you can't stop yourself from feeling human you can't stop you can't you're gonna feel and the feelings or what life is about you want those that nervous anxiety feeling like my biggest fear in life is to live life on a flat line where you don't feel anything and you're just living where you're not doing anything I want life to be like this because that's when you're living you know and that's why I love competing because it's uncomfortable but uncomfortable feeling though is what I love yeah you know you love do you like serious loves uncomfort or most of us are desperately seeking comfort everything we do that's all we laughs what makes your grammar IQ that you are chasing on comfort and you're staring at fear and anxiety and pain and going haha bring it I want more of it and I'm gonna grow for this you know and that's I mean that's what all the ingredients that make this no stress is what makes us grow you know like we need these guys we need like we talked about we need problems we need stress anxiety yeah exactly good most people said oh you know like when they would ask me like competing how are you not scared or how do you not nervous it's like none other you always we mean everybody is scared everybody is nervous and you're supposed to be if I would be more concerned if I wasn't and I have been in a few occasions and I didn't perform well because if you're not nervous going into a competition to me that kind of says that you're not you know chanted yeah you're not invested in the outcome so you're fighting like a robot which could work but the guy who's really wants it you're gonna have more emotional energy than you so me so he's gonna be able to put in more because he cares I think that's it I think that brings up two things were competing one the reason why we love competing uncertainty if we knew for a fact we were gonna win would we care at all no you don't know that's what everything in life is about anything that's uncertain that's what we are seeing you defeated that's what we're seeking anything uncertain let me ask you this Micah do you feel that I've had moments like I've always been I feel like y'all never like the best athlete or anything I have one thing I've always been but I'm very competitive I've always been that's a child I hate and I'm gonna play Monopoly as a child if I lost before like I can't eat I just hate losing or I have always been that way and I feel like there's a certain anger there that I manage to channel a lot of times I'd be losing a fight so I got a minute left my coach yells and I'm losing to I go like a like I'd lose it you can see like I haven't read panicking the feeling I would have is a panic that I'm about to lose unless I sweet this guy and I'd switched gears in a way like I've lost count of how many times I've turn to match the very end because of this right so I guess like it's a feel it almost like I'm wondering I'm asking you I'm asking you if you can actually channel some like anger or you ever angry when you fight if there's everything not angry as in like England the fact that you're gonna lose anyone or are you always like very methodical stoic and like not very are you're unemotional when you during your match so I'm usually very unemotional when I compete the only match I was emotional was when I fought Burnham officee and it was just because the background like all right when I was younger with him we trained with each other and then how he retired last year and I won my father he wanted rooster and he told me okay Mikey I'm retired now that's why I was doing like feather because I change with him when I was younger so out of respect for him I want him to like feather you know cuz he helped me and I didn't want to fight someone that helped me yeah you know I never lived his gym but he was like three or up three and a half hours from my house so I would sometimes go and get private lessons from him and let him kill me when I was a blue buff you know like the train would brew him off the scene so um that so I was like Bru okay you helped me when I was a kid I respect for you I'm gonna move up to lightfeather yeah so I won like feather world he won Brewster world he retired yeah he won his 10th title so then you sad that we're both sitting there hanging out and he's like okay Mikey I retired that's it I'm officially done you can do rooster so then I died for rooster then the week of world he he signs up for rooster after giving me his word that he wasn't gonna fight you know so for me when somebody gives me their word like word is like honor you know what I mean so I was very emotional upset at him as you didn't want to fight and I never wanted to fight him you know so I felt so bad fighting him you know and when we were fighting it was very hard for me to stay motional II into the match I kept getting emotional I'm fortunate that I won but that was really hard for me to stay composed emotional emotionally but at the end of the fight that you guys had like a little altercation what happened so I finished the fight and if you watch the video I don't celebrate at all I don't raise my hand I don't do anything the first thing I do because we haven't been talking that morning that morning before we fought I went up to him in like before I even fought him he was gonna fight kayo I went up to him and shook his hand and said it was saying like good good good just just to break the ice out of respect for him because I I couldn't just remain angry at him you know I was wanted to be the bigger person just shake his hand so I went up and shook his hand that morning so then I when I finish the fight the first thing I did I didn't celebrate anything I feel like we emotionally both let our emotions out on the mat and we just settled it on but you know what I mean I don't miss a reward yeah it was it was insane match and and I'm actually grateful for him because he gave me the opportunity to fight alleged you know I would have never fought him if he didn't do that so it made me grow as a person competing with said at the end there I don't remember I went there he got mad and oh yeah so I went to shake his hand and he wouldn't shake my hand so I'm just like like what like what like what and then I went to shake he did this and it's funny cuz there's a sticker on whatsapp that is me like this and him like this but how he did it was so long it was so perfect how he how he said it you know I mean like he did it so smooth but but then immediately I was like why did you do this why I didn't want to fight you I kept that's all I kept saying him I that's all I kept saying why did you do this I didn't want to fight you like you think I'm happy that I fire you you think and then that was that was the I think the Bruno mo for seen you might be with the most successful competitor of all time I agree and I sense that he I feel like he just so many years before world cycle didn't walk at them I'm sure got 13 now is that right 13 huh because two divisions each year yeah he's like competing to division so he's got but like movement while seeing has consistently been the best in the world up to now he just lost the first time and even with the light feather and Biddy Mendes yeah and then he fought for 12 years straight now that's just incredible as a competitor he's he's incredible and like I learned a lot like my training with him I didn't positionally learn so much but I feel like I a part of me learned from him like how to be like how to win you know what I mean like just just like how he was you know I feel like that rubbed off on me somehow oh and I he's unusual - because he's a top player which is not very you I mean that's bottom - yeah he's doesn't mind being on top which is very unusual in your division and he's very explosive like for like a small guy you know he's more like a middleweight like how he gets power like a lot of the small group Suites they don't have a power because there's there it's rooster we haven't instead it's skinny no he's like small and like explosive you know he has explosion power so it's a little different history Dave what else I mean yeah yeah I had a question for you so when you started training as this when I started training I was actually the smallest guy in my gym which is kind of scary I had the crush my brother was but then after my brother we had a 240 and 250 260 so I was used to getting squashed you know like that helped me early on because I lost the fear of fighting bigger guys because I've had 260 plus pound guys squeezing the hell out of me and you lose that claustrophobia you knows I'm one day you're very significantly smaller than me have you had to go through that yes so in Florida when I used to Train everyone I trained with was usually middleweight lightweight they're up and I was like a lot smaller than I am now so I was always the smallest guy you know some some trainings would be through you Saverio AJC's I don't know you know eating Susan and Mike to other middleweight and I would just be sitting in the corner like with all these big guys and I would just be in the corner praying I don't get yeah don't get it being the quarry praying before every training is all I completely understand what you mean you know like it's hard training with those big guys but it made it makes us tougher I personally feel that if I'm training with big eyes I have to do physical therapy a lot just to support my joints you know that's something that helped me a lot like living in Vegas is that I have more small guys to train with so it's less impact on my body yeah so I can study more positions like if you do work a quantity of normally that you you're closer I mean more to the competition yeah it's close to the competition you know it was like I got like AJ Suzhou Saverio duty it's not the game is not this something thing I mean it's just different in every category I always say every category is a different word almost every division is it's why I like competing different divisions I feel like if you could compete in different divisions and make your game work in different divisions that shows your level if you get to you know like every division does you just do a job different you know like when you go to a different gym every gym the guys play a certain guard like a certain way they have a style every every division the style is different just a little bit you know I mean I started to believe in I was a lightweight I was not a big teenager I knew I mean I've been gaining weight and I'm 245 but like my game has changed dramatically like I hate the fact that I'm a heavyweight now because well first of all that fly economy and that's like my game is like it gets it's gets uglier by the day I feel like I feel like when I was like a minute my medium heavy middle weight my digits was all prettier I play guard I like the transitions where you can move but as you get heavy it's just it's it's harder you're more sluggish yeah and like now I get to half guard I do this and I thought this is horrible you did so you know but I it's it's almost like you can't help it like it's I cannot move as fast as you do if your division is different my division turns if I have to whatever your body is you have to train accordingly to your division and that brings back to the point of like like when competitors are training in the gym or so like if let's say like there's heavy weights in the gym and the coach is like a very small guy like I feel like the coach has to cater toward everyone's division individual to the sense that everyone's division is different how could how could for example I coach heavy weights and be like ok guys we're all gonna do double pole today it's and I write do now and it's it's hard to do because it's such a big class yeah everything you know what my problems like but that I have this problem so I've have guys that gotta balance yeah so what I do is I do this all the time I split the room in half guard pole notice to my left take down artist to my right he says so when they drill it makes no sense for ultra heavyweight to drill Brumos yeah those not going to pull it off it's it's it's a stand up match for me did you rest on me I mean like exactly in my feather rooster everyone butts good so fast yeah it's a conflict point you could time a shot like we could drill like timing shot chai or like pulling first like things like that but we can't drill straight standing like the dance and I know that uh when there's exercise to do to gym but there's a game that we play for garb for like I what we do is you went three ways you win by timing to take down the pole to carpool with a footsweep or a double you win by Ashley pulling guard or by double guard pulling come come averse to get they manage so it's a game the trains on my lightweights prepares them for the lightweight that's so important because that's half the madness are the match is the most important part light weights and this leads into my next topic with you Mikey everyone knows okay you've got a beautiful mind you are incredibly disciplined everyone knows I think everyone gets all these things from you just like watching you but then there's another side to you that a lot of people don't know and I've noticed by watching you compete you're a highly highly intelligent competitor just before we start filming the podcast me and Mikey were talking any CC rules and he's giving me all the loopholes and Hades assuming he's got them all figured out and I do do this do that I'm like so this is a very very intelligent competitor so tell us a little bit about that aspect of key as converter and how important is that so I always like when I first started competing like in black belt oh and just in general like I always felt like I was so nervous in like when you know when you're nervous and your body feels frozen and you feel like you can't move so what I was able to figure out was if I play if I was able to play a certain type of strategy I have a backup for when I had that feeling so it made me wee more confident to compete because I felt like even if I don't feel good mentally I could win every match because of strategy and strategy is so fascinating to me because there's the rules and it's it's beating someone in an in a thinking game and that nobody really thinks about you know and I feel like that aspect an element every element of being a champion there's so many different ones right and a lot of times you don't even need the play strategy but I believe that is so important to have that extra tool so when your jujitsu isn't working you still win the fight right let's say that you physically don't feel good you're sick you should be able to have a backup so that's how I viewed strategy like my first world that I won the world in 2017 when I beat Isaac then are in the semis they she won in the finals the one we're talking about um Robert well that worlds I was so so nervous because I hadn't won worlds yet like I just I felt so like heart I mentally is your one Brownville year before right the year before no it was 2015 so 2016 1 2016 I lost Isaac that was my third tournament black belt I was full-time in school so I did wasn't able to compete a lot I didn't need a more experience so you lost Isaac Baco first year and then the next year you won yes ok so and I they held me so much losing the first year oh yeah I think it was like the best thing ever but I think so so walk us through like what is because you're talking about strategy give us a little bit of strategies a lot of times people think stride they don't they're understanding what you're saying okay so I'll get by but keep preparing for it show me out that day what's going through that well my mind was horrible at that world so I was going through my mind before I fought you want I was just like I can't wait to get this over with remember how we talked about when you're supposed to be in the fight you're said like in training like earlier or we said like when you go into train you're suppose to be excited to be there you know and like you should feel like time isn't going like you should be like aw man the fact the trainings over not I can't wait for this to be done my mind so is I can't wait for this fight to be done yeah you know cuz I was in the finals I just wanted to win world so bad and so I'll give one example strategy in my division I beat you have added the row of double pole right where they give you an advantage I mean that if you both earn double pole for 20 seconds I believe they stand you up and you both get penalties or either a loophole and that rule is if you take a submission like an ankle lock or any type of submission they cannot stand you up so when you type the ankle up oh this is how I use the inkblot that year whenever I tack the ankle lock a it's a wingman for me because one I have a submission so the they can't stand us up and two if the person comes up from double pole I'm gonna get an advantage for the inka lot and they're gonna get an advantage for coming up so now it's just like I pulled guard regularly but I even have controlled their like so that's that's heaven for it's a way it's a win-win yeah so I mean they can't pass hurt about who's gonna pass your collar division that's that's so it so that's that's what I was that was a loophole in the rule that I was playing and it's just small things like that figuring out like how you could work around the rules in a way that the person is lost and then you can use your jujitsu at the same time because when they get frustrated they open up right it's very hard to to to make someone open up that is just not that's closed right that is fighting not to lose I'll give an example of when two southpaws fight right isn't it like all weird not because they're both not coming in no not southpaw uh counter fire sorry yeah yeah they went business the other place is a stalemate right so a lot of people my division they just don't fight they both just wait for the other person to do something sudden the counter you know so I feel like this style made shuts that style off because if they don't count on you and they just stay there you win yeah you know so that is saying good at you're playing chess it's a chess game yeah and then you're trying to be twenty moves ahead exactly exactly so and you're trying to make the person get frustrated where they stop trying to they stop being on the defensive and they open up because when they open up that's when I can use my head do you visualize these situations before track first sure I don't usually train doing this probably in the past I used to a lot more now I automatically do it it's just natural for me subconsciously I like a tournament game and I just naturally do it like even my ankle I never do my in clocking training I don't like doing the hockey training I feel like I don't want to hurt anyone I'm training with and I just don't ever do it I only do it the week of worlds you know and then it's just a tournament game is so much different than a training game and that's why you'll see guys in the gym that could beat a lot of guys in the gym right that are amazing but in tournaments to lose first night because a tournament jujitsu and your jujitsu in the gym like your g2 in general are not the same you know and the best have the best jujitsu in the gym and they could apply their jujitsu in the tournament where they could be both you know and I feel like that's where it gets interesting yeah you know you bring a good point with strategy because I've I talked about it before I've been in a lot of great people just with strategy not necessarily being more talented stronger or more athletic it's just knowing the rules knowing how to put people in vulnerable positions where you could win and it's overlooked a lot of people don't like to think all right leg especially you doing something like martial arts they they just want to and using their better jujitsu what they think it is but sometimes it's very easy to negate somebody if you know how the rules work and how you can gain them so it's just showing the other side of you again I'm very wise beyond your years normally recommend that I to me i when I lost that final Roger grace like it taught me such an important lesson because I got my butt kicked I was killing people in the gym I got destroyed but it did something to me where I was like man I'm going to train from now on like I compete I'm gonna try to make this guy tap every single opportunity I did so I started training and it was a huge leap in my game really because I started like I raised the bar for myself and all strange so I have to the goals yes I get this guy three times I have exactly I would have a goal like if I try is a 10 minute round I have to make him tap ten times I have to take whatever once per minute like that was like the goal in my head right if I just go in for the kill all the time right it made me very aggressive it really big leap in my game but I wanted to prepare myself to compete in a certain way and I thought that I had to train that because that aggression was a skill it's a skill I guess some people tell them so this is what they do they go oh I will change my company so they train in a certain way and then they go in them and then when they go to compete they can't do they can't because they haven't trained it so the old I'll be aggressive when I compete like no you know you're gonna compete exactly the same as your change so do you train strategically because I used to do it off my training part is I'd come up with game plans to beat my training partners it's not in a mean way but like oh so I'm a little crazy like how you were a trainee and I'll sometimes make goals in my mind okay I have to do this position I don't really make the go of submitting the person because I feel like sometimes when I'm going for summations it takes more time out of the role that I could be doing more positions so sometimes I'll be training on go captain take the back like ten times and I'll take the back let the person replace they take the back again then let the person place stuff like that you're drilling my base I always just like Joe and then and then sometimes I'm like sometimes when I'm training my mind starts like bothering me so like I'll be I'll see the clock and we'll be thirty seconds left it doesn't matter where I am and I'll just say you're down by two in my mind yeah and then I'll just go and see to make up the two points yeah and just my mind sometimes just does that in the chain because you're coming up with ways of challenging yourself normally because you could have you could have cruise that round I'm gonna win that's how we we don't like exactly I understand but yeah so you have to like because I go if I just do myself area I'm gonna beat you so you have to come up a little games in your head to like absolutely raise the bar like thirty seconds left I got to tap this guy I know my ten points and then the thirty Seconds you panic to try to make them tap yeah we try to do those drills all the time in training but you see we both do that automatically right but it's so people can't I don't like people don't like regular people they don't think like that do you think you thinking I think comes from us because you like uncomfort so much i I think that I don't whenever I feel comfortable in training I don't like the feeling I have to feel unease and I have to get like that feeling of I have to do something you know I mean that up yeah otherwise you're not training yeah then it's not fun yeah because I think what happens with most people when they go to Train particularly if they're going to a very competitive Jimmy is they just want to survive and I think like I just want to make it through it they have like very low and mission goals like I don't wanna get tapped but I don't get my guard pass or II think they're very like to me like I said low ambition I get your goal for training should be to crush the Train it's not but it might but in my opinion it's even deeper than that we're not crushing like the goes in the crusted training like I'm not personally thinking of my training partner that I'm gonna crush I'm thinking of doing using my jujitsu that I'm gonna use when I compete so did you talk to Brazilian by the way you know oh my god my goal is when I'm competing on training I'm thinking of the people in a fight and I'm not training with the person that I'm when I'm training in the gym I'm not fighting the person I'm training I'm just using their body as the body of the horse I'm gonna fight you yes and I'm trying to be used them to apply my jujitsu the people I'm gonna fight and so I'll be playing the game of might of the competition being that I'm gonna use when I go to fight and even if that's not the best Dean for the guy I'm training like if let's say for example I'm training and I know I'm gonna be fighting someone that I should be playing Delic Evo I'm not even though the person I'm trained with in the gym I could beat him playing lasso I'm gonna play though Hiva on that Percy oh because when I fight I'm gonna be doing dog-human yes so so you're engaged in the competition and your your mind is in competition mode 24/7 24 you're not we have a scene in my gym we call it this gold no make a friend there's a half you couldn't speak English when I start teaching every time you talk to someone chatting or going easy you'd be like oh no make a friend let me train jiu-jitsu writes a car not everyone's like but like I think a lot of people come to you to to make a friend and there's nothing wrong with that I think it's a beautiful thing if you come to gym just just to have fun it's fine I you know it but clearly you're going to the gym with a competition mindset all the time I think only close to tournaments I'm more uptight like that especially when I'm losing weight so I'm angry ok but I'm more in the gym I'm usually usually I'm drilling and I'll be practicing a certain move and then when I'm training I'm using the people I'm training with they get reactions to the position of work so I could improve and update my position and see how they could give me a reaction that I didn't know you're creating your own health yes basically yeah but that's so like I said that's what I mean by that crushing is like you're pushing yourself to try to get the most out of yourself in the training versus just trying to survive the training to get your sae afterwards anyway then you're trying to go that's what I mean by some people that train and their whole goal is not to get tapped your whole goal is to survive but they want to compete that's that shouldn't even compete no what I'm saying is if they're not competitors ok whatever it's a hobby but if your competitor and your whole goal is not is to survive a training and like give yourself a power in the back that you didn't get tapped because you hold you hold on or whatever are you gonna how are you gonna compete and I do I said I know be like I literally just like be content with not having their guards passed in practice and their code that that's it I might go with me me my - I'm gonna use my I'm gonna do my my jitan I'm gonna do it 100% when I'm training and if I get my guard past trying to do my egging for the tournament perfect because now I just learned something I'm doing wrong yeah I'm this flawless the more flaws we learn the more mistakes we learn the better right now they're helping us get better you know but if I'm gonna play a game just to survive and hold on in training how is that gonna help me with my aging for when I play but like that's what I'm saying like you are I mean we may or may not realize this mind you but you are constantly looking it's once I got an addiction for you to look at ways of challenging yourself and everything I think that is one what makes you so great at what you do is that you're never ever comfortable like what can I do you'll you enjoy the challenge right you don't want to you don't want the pat on the back you don't think you want to be what's the next challenge so this year on a one world it was the weirdest thing ever because when I won I had zero emotion yeah I walked off the mat and I was just like wow I don't feel anything it was the first time like I completely felt nothing and it was it was more and all thinking about was the mistakes I made when I thought you know when I uh when I fought Bruno and I got off the mat the first thing me and kayo said to each other the first thing I said was man I suck I got swept from butterfly guard that's the first thing I said the guy up after all just fighting we made mistakes you know so that was just all that bothered me you know it's funny like I think most so many people like when whatever they're doing like they'll look at you know their competition logistic the competition they'll go look at all the amazing things look at that flying triangle look at that sweet they're looking they're patting themselves on the back cuz that feels good they think they don't want the positive yeah but like you think you're you just won a world title and you walk off the mats and you get your upset cuz you got swept by brunoise Vizzini that's like but that's the kind of mindset you need to do this because you have to be insane yes you look at the flaws you're not looking at the good you're looking at them what do I need to fix to make this machine and you know people around you that aren't just cheerleaders that are gonna tell you that like we have to fix this we have to people aren't just you're amazing yeah great if your coaches are us man is not a good coach exactly you need like you need you need the people around you they always be real with you that thing's so important like I know when we corner fighters it wasn't that whatever happens win or lose from the game to backstage we do the little compliment sandwich where we'll say good job doing this you need to work on this because especially they lost they'll be very receptive to that lesson early in because the pain of loss is gonna attach whatever you told them what mistake was made funny cuz it's funny because I always make the joke with my friends I'm the worst person to talk to like whenever my friends fought and like they want to talk to me after losing because you told the truth I'd say the truth I don't want to hear but like but like I'm not very empathetic in that way yeah you're the same way but you're not supposed see you're right you're not wrong they're wrong I don't think I hope it's everyone everyone's wrong then it is the best advice you can give your friend is like give them an ear for why he lost people can't handle it man they hate it you might lost friends on what is what is the biggest flaw and he means what we said before ego yeah it's their ego that they have problems with me whenever people lose the regular person not us whenever the regular person loses in their mind they think of excuses why they lost and they think of ways like that they got screwed or they just had a bad luck or something and then they accept the loss in their mind do we ever accept loss yeah no you can you can never accept loss every time I've lost a match is I that's all I goes through my mind is why yeah you ain't it yeah I and I never I never say oh I just got stuck in this position but I gets ridiculous you and that's not like I made a mistake yeah if I'm losing a fight I made a mistake you know it's that simple in those product is like I've made this mistake before I've complained the rest before sometimes my students lose and I still complain rest but I think as a coach a little bit different as a competitor but I've literally lost something that's that's really yeah I know 100% but like here's the thing how many mistakes is the ref make during the match one two three bad rap baby three mistakes in the match let's say how many have you made so me that was riot you're very controlling you're like it's thousands of mistakes but like everyone's focused on the referees controls you know I'm not your own mistake which are entirely responsible that one match that lost like I really got screwed that fight from the ref and like oh four or five bad calls in the fight and I lost a rough decision it was a really like I was really upset and but I had their own mindset because I kept thinking how the rest are gonna screw me this and that the next year when I thought like after I won I won worlds every year I stopped caring what they rested because I was just focused on using my jujitsu and in my jujitsu how it should be their refs giving me points doing anything doesn't matter at all right because they don't control the fight I control the outcomes and I have to have that mindset the RAF's the crowd doesn't matter what they're doing though anything in iris is myself and that's why that's so important they like when I change that mindset because I'm American right so um I used to really believe oh you're fighting brazilians they're gonna screw you this and that you know I mean that's a theme I don't you think I think it's a little crap 2017 I had some ridiculous calls you know some ridiculous calls like that they really went against the rules and they like screwed me yeah like but I ended up winning that world even though they kept every match giving me what do you think it has to do with them be it's an honest mistake or do you think it has to do with them being biased because I think it has we biased toward the big needs I don't think has to do with what country you're from this is where I think the bias lies this guy's my friend I know him well I got your flowers they're friends honey everything like I don't think that I think nationally when it comes to national I think I just has more to gain by favoring America of course because publicity wise that's all Brazilians that dominate he knows that like 90% of their income is Americans like if a financially speaking big some more sense to them what a guy like keen into it it does their organization better if they have American world champion every single division I think they would but doesn't IBG Jeff and the refs are separate aren't they well it's it's the scible did you have trains the refs but the refs I mean they have their own personal biases I'm convinced there's no IBJJF no I never say there's no idea everything I think if that was a bad person it has nothing to do with the country I understand believe it has nothing to do with country I believe though it has to do with someone being not a pygmy and you're there fighting big names they're gonna always favor the big name now thinking back it's more of that has nothing to do with what country even you have seen like for example if the champion goes to the city's decision with liked it not that the the challenge the champion always way that's my view on that but like back then I was really like I had that mindset like oh they're all about to screw me yeah you know but then when I stopped really caring about that and just thought about winning worlds in my Jitsu and just the things I could control cuz I can't control what the ref does yeah I can't control if he gives me points and I can't control any of that what can I control though dominating the person where they cannot do anything so where most people have a laser beam of energy that goes like this you're doing this right here you're narrowing everything taking everything out of the equation just focusing on like just that one you yeah and that's like a laser beam like that see cuz kray-kray they got what we were talking about before he said something really interesting to me once and so true if I focus on the rest I focus on the crowd I focus on all these things how much percent am I in the match I lost my 100% focus of a match by thinking of outside elements and so now I'm fighting at 60% of my mind that I should be a hundred you know what I mean yeah we should be a Honduras that invested in a match how could we be at sixty fifty thinking of all these expecting to win a world title and thinking of all these outside things that are completely irrelevant that we have no control of you know and that was my first world I was probably 40% in each match mentally okay I had a similar because I I'm American myself and I had the disadvantage that when I started I didn't have a coach so I was American in like 1998-99 training by myself and my brother so when I started doing grappling tournaments and stuff like that and I was 40 I was winning early matches I had a lot of animosity towards me and my brother because like who are these guys like they don't come they don't even train Brazilian Jujitsu you know they're just shoe fighters I have one guy call me a black belt wrestler as an insult davis jou just a black belt wrestler okay but uh when I compete ATTC I mean I would lose some close calls and I had the same thought process initiative like and none of these guys want to see me win because I'm essentially a ronin I don't come from a big affiliation or this and that and then I had a shift of thought I'm like you know what I'm I might be seeing some of this out there but I'm also giving it to strength by believing in it all right so I changed my thought process so you know what people want to see me win now I and more important it was myself like I want to see myself win and everything in the universe is gonna help me and sure enough when I competed I remember it was against cyborg I want a ref decision against him and I'm like that's a lot right because it's cyborg you know and I was able to get a ref decision I can how can I say there was bias against me you know and then I want a decision with azhagiya you know like how can you say those bias against me but like it started happening when I started making that shift where rad and think Oh or assign blame like these are you losing it all on yourself like we said the beginning instead of thinking everything's trying to hurt me or take from me no no everything's trying to help me you know like even if it wasn't I just wanted to make that my belief and it worked out like I got a lot calls like the one with cyborg was like coin toss dude like I think I gotta give it to him all right you know I could see it true yeah I think I'll be good that that the confirmation bias prevents a lot of people from see in these situations they only see what reinforces what they want to believe in you know well you're never right for my experience is the same thing I've been too plain I never thought I was being screwed for any personal reason it was always like yeah just a dumb ass you know he's making like only take a warm match which was a total screw job it wasn't me it was my brother he found this small promotion in Texas and they definitely lost money running the tournament like barely anybody showed up and I guess the guy my brother was fighting was fighting for free in the super fight where my getting paid I think it's like family bucks right so my brother took him down past his guard almost on Bardem and at the end they gave it to the other guy how it was like how and because they didn't score points they they cyan't aggressiveness other no points there's no points they fight to win so yeah but this is really and when they gave my brother flipped out he did the Hickson threw a water bottle at somebody after words the one time I remember fighting mad cuz my brother just got hooked out and then they're okay it's on then I just destroyed the guy in front of me but yeah other than that I can't think of a blatant like Screwjob you know I think it's more like you said you this confirmation bias you know you're seeing negativity or you have something because you know see it and then you get it off it's an easy out like that you know Mike you mentioned something a wild L you like when you compete like happy and 60% versus 100 and shutting off everything else I get the impression if speaking to you that you're the kind of guy that you have this ability to shut off the outside world like if World War 3 were going on right now and you're fighting room oficina game okay like it's a hunt it's like not ninth one percent for you know the world catching on fire whatever it's like you know and I was gonna ask you like what is the importance of your social life your your personal life in your Egypt because I believe that if you have a balanced person alive socialized everything from parents to girlfriend and maybe it's so much bang it's as important as your training because I unless you could because there's a thing if you if these things are messing with your head and they're interfering with your energy your blade with the ref yeah it's the same thing because now you're thinking of all these problems you have so how important is it to be balanced outside of the digital all right so I'm 23 now and this is the first time I've had a girlfriend ever you know so when I was going up when I was coming up in like Bluebell juvenile I won the world and my a two close friends they were like the same level as me and they both won juvenile worlds also in Florida both extremely high level both of them ended up getting girlfriends and quitting he Jitsu sure like I watched before that even my coach shark he would always tell me everyday never get married and never date girls he told me I was like for like three years Street every day so then I wasn't training with him sounds like oh okay maybe it was just like maybe he was a little crazy and then and then I saw that happen to my friends shark was right so um I never talked to girls I never like focused on any of that and then um and then but I realized is what helped me stay balanced was school because I wasn't ever able to just focus on the precise jujitsu whenever I'm off from school and I would focus 100% on jiu-jitsu it was like bad like I'm in bed thinking of positions um in the shower thinking uh positions like every second my brain is just thinking of positions but it's not healthy to like your brain you need other things to stimulate your brain sort of their improvement it actually stunt your growth when you have a 100% in one thing for sure I know like I went to school as a electrical engineer and when you do study sessions generally for me you like 2 to 4 hours was like a max amount of time where you need a break because if you stayed other books for the 8 hours straight it's just the numbers and letters start floating around and you don't really neck it you meant is that you're mentally yeah that you need your minds gotta rest a little bit yeah you need to take breaks you know like I've only pulled off once I've learned physics to in one week I stayed in a library literally for a week just for the final just for the fun because I passed all my other finals but I totally skipped that class because I remember it was like one of those classes I only had one midterm and a final and then I aced the midterm so they're like oh I don't have to show up to classes and then it was final to me like crap I just missed the big four months of school yeah so I got the book and a little read every single page did everybody balance in the book one week straight like spending about 12 hours a day in the library but that was brutal you know and it was it's not hell it's not normal it's not normal and I forgot everything right afterwards there's so much in score like your vocab tests I would never study for the vocab test and then like like I would always like push it to see how close I could do it to the boat contest give me like five minutes before like fifty terms memorize all 50 terms take the test get a hundred but then have zero idea well I just put on the people that was my physics to test because I showed up I'm like okay I know physics - and then I got to the test and the first 15 minutes I just stared the paper and I was freaking out like why am i drawing a blank I don't know anything I'm like I did the I went through every homework that every problem of the test I still have anything mcwrap all right calm down relax breathe and there's like 10 minutes or nothing and then got back into place I've got it you know okay 97 and that's like but it was just like staying cool you know like if I would have liked to panic overcome me there it would just accept the panic yeah just say you say before alright let it ride it's warm up yeah but yeah you go to school - Mike so you have like that uh take you find that that balance I always tell people did you find a recipe that is winning change that recipe and I feel like something good goal for you manly that's a good and that's great like what you're talking about because what I've noticed is every person that wins blackboards none of them train identically the same way right true everyone has to find their way to win worlds and then once they find how to win the world it's so much easier because they know how and they know how to train the craft what are the commonalities though because there must be some overlapping like oh for sure there's overlapping the accountability I think everyone would agree is one don't blame the world blame yourself and I think has to do more on the terms of someone's jiu-jitsu athleticism an IQ level because if your game is so athletic based like you need strength you need to do a lot of conditioning write something that's game is super athletic based while mine is all thinking right so my training is just a lot of drilling studying and thinking so I don't do any conditioning like the last what your is it 19 about over three years no conditioning so I don't need to do conditioning because my jujitsu isn't based on athleticism or strength or power you know so I feel like it's understanding what type of jujitsu you do in terms of how much strength you need for your game athleticism because if someone's game is very athletic and they don't have a high IQ it's better they need to do conditioning all right because their game they need their they need to be in peak shape to do their game is dependent on but there's nothing wrong with that because jiu-jitsu you could is built for everyone someone with lower IQ someone with higher IQ someone that's athletic someone that's not athletic at all you know that's what's amazing budget - there's not one size fits all but once you figure out yourself and your how I get the specialty for yourself like how your game and uniqueness of yourself and how your brain is and you balance that all together then that's and you're able to formulate that to make yourself able to win worlds and everything then that's when the the beauty happens because then you know how you're going to keep improving and you know the four military well that's my key that's like a lot of knowing me and David is that all like like 20 second little soundbites you put on Instagram I think you've given us so material man like I've got plenty of food for thought myself think Dave feels the same way I'm sure like yeah I mean I really had a conversation with you before my keep it like very smart young man is definitely somebody I'll be watching out for in the fan-shaped because you have a very good like I wish like I feel like you're at the mindset where I'm at now but 15 years I got that wisdom I think is like a look where my career is over yeah and now so good for you man yeah that is great and uh I was gonna ask you what are you studying school anyway okay so I'm guessing something engineering related no okay I just graduated my business degree okay yeah so now I think I'm gonna go I want to go to law school but I'm contemplating waiting to go to law school like a little into the future and to get my MBA first you know nice so that's okay that's a good plan for sure I think because education what they always say is knowledge is power you know and there's no reason why I shouldn't be able to train compete and as well as learn and study and learn different aspects of life yeah you can totally do it ie I was studying in school you know full-time fifteen credits I had my own business which I was running the martial arts gym and I was competing all over and that was 19 years old that's amazing I was juggling all three at once you know nobody tasks past you know but like some people like I read like most people when they're in college like partying and they're going out and they're drinking I never did waste of time yeah I was kind of like you you know like one party never know yeah yeah went to one party in college one or all those years yeah I never went to a college party I was either training I was either studying or I was teaching at the gym and I was doing that rotation and I treated college like I treated training which is I was there to beat everybody and I was always gunning to be a top student of my class you know because I didn't want if someone got 95 that means I had to get higher than then it shows how easy you could apply to all aspects of life absolutely and that's I think what we talked about the other day that's the most important aspect of it you know like all the moves that we do are nice but like what's more meaningful is how you're able to extend that knowledge to other areas of life because when you start teaching it will see your students and that competitors I would say probably 90% 100% yeah yes so what are they gonna get from the experience being with you that's gonna make their life change and even more on top of that like as a coach like that runs a gym like how you have the ability to change somebody's life it's so interesting you know like something that is like a hard day of work someone that's going through depression and you have the ability to help them and they're like make them happy and like they have some enjoyment in their life you know I think that's like so interesting as a professor is that you're able to do that it's the most meaningful thing you can do you talk about like there's there's people who just recruit talent and then then they want to take that talent to the next level whereas when you grab somebody from the you know who knows nothing two left feet and you make them capable of self defense and giving confidence it's so much of a bigger be water I mean like that person's life is forever change like you said they get in a positive way and you just played a small role in getting in there and that's everything and it has nothing to do with winning medals or anything and all people are the same but they're like the white belt and a black bear watching you to see it's a social reward you were actually doing something for the world you're not gonna get a pat on the back for it now get a medal but you can go to bed at night knowing that you know slightly better I just improve in the world a little bit that to me that's right I see this a lot that's nothing yeah talent at all they're never gonna win a world title but it is so rewarding to watch them grow as human beings and watch that kid used to walk in the gym like this it's not exactly like yet there you know because a girlfriend and then like he changed the way he talks to you and I was like big no jokes with people before he was just like so watching these changing people to me it's incredible is amazing because we've all been through it all right and that's the thing like I know starting myself I was shy overweight like I thought I was like 130 pounds in third grade oh that kid yeah and getting bullied and stuff like that so you know being able to take what my aggressing coach brought me essentially always say the aggressive made me a man you know like I learned that sort of hard work and and the willpower to put myself into anything so me I'm just you know what do they call that when you're just passing along that goodwill you know like someone's giving it to me now I'm gonna make sure I could pass that same message to an enemy because we had to figure out all the hardships ourselves and what we could do to give back to others is teach people the lessons that we've learned yes and from the mistakes that we made right so I always say that in life and in jiu-jitsu I'm allowed to make as many mistakes as I want that's life right but the rule is I can only make that mistake one time if you do not make it you make the mistake more than one then it's on you can make the mistake can't repeat it absolutely Mike let me ask you this I know your sister is also Rocha first female American to win a world title she's also not quite a status with you but like not too far behind either she's always been I know you guys train a lot together we should probably remain training partner always I've seen you guys fight though that's a really interesting release we would probably have time here so yeah well she just graduated law school yeah no she's on her last year right last year in law school and it's a very bright girl as well if you don't know where she's a very very successful current world champion and well you know give us a little bit that dynamic okay so um since I was about 12 years old we've been both training all her life she started I say so I start at 4 and since about until I was like 13 ish she smashed me every training we did because um you were 13 yeah okay I smashed this yep she was like a physical editor of the ice it was a lot bigger than me and stronger but like she's the bully me every tree like she would get mouth block both my arms and slapped me in the face like every day yeah you know so um I always I always try to get revenge on her now yeah so since I was younger like we always training with each other every day I used to when I was a brown belt I was in high school and she was in high school too I used to wake up at 4:30 a.m. and we had mats in our garage and we would drill every morning before I went to school you know so I always had her as a drilling partner and and definitely on paper she submitted me the most out of anyone ever oh boy stay that way what was amazing about Tammy is that she's in Moscow right and um she literally had her finals two week before worlds this year she barely was training for worlds at all so she finished her finals I honestly didn't even know she was competing until like two weeks before and then um she finished her final she's like let me just see how I feel off their finals so she finished her finals and then she went in a fight at like the worlds and um and every a lot of people they make excuses about not winning worlds oh I'm working full time oh I'm in school they just look for reasons that they can't win justify and people don't like people that can succeed when they have those obstacles they're people like the people that win that just live on the nights yeah why do you why do they like the people I live on the mats because that's theirs yeah so just to find their loss so I see my sister as huge motivation for myself you know how hard she works she's always been my role model you know like her hard work her discipline and um I've always looked up to her so much and it shows me and it should show everyone else not to think that mindset and they show you that she literally was treating like twice a week like in school every day dying and she didn't one on and one but the world that's incredible you know like so for me it's a huge inspiration Oh Mikey like this is uh it's been enormous pleasure anything else you wanna ask him like yeah so much so much out of this I feel like I got like oh man this is very interesting you look at that that way and I've been looking for this for a while because I've known it for so long but we always talk briefly you know what average the first time I actually get to picture I think sometimes when I do like interviews and stuff like I'm uncomfortable because I'm very introverted so it's hard for me to open up sometimes but because I know you and we're friends I feel like this interview is way better because I'm talking to you like I was just talking like in the house hey like you just know that there's okay yeah exactly so I think that I was able to say more of my feelings and stuff that usually I wouldn't be able to say because of that well I think it's super cool thank you I'm sure sure they appreciate it because this has been incredible no no it's been very insightful and that's great to hear and I think if again you're the future of martial arts were in a good place right we're making you're the type of person I want as an ambassador I say that exact things like don't change don't change because we need more people like you Mikey BJJ is going in a very weird route and I always say this yeah you have to reinforce the good this is the good yeah you know and this is the Cantus is what you have to aspire to be like because you know you are a role model a lot of people to look up to you other utilise it or not there's a 12 year old kid out there maybe you be the next guy to beat you is 12 now looks up to you Mikey and that guy wants to be you so you know continue to be this amazing person you are thank you and I will say this not you know I'm not really blowing smoke up your butt or anything man it really I think you're the best American grappler of all time thank you and you're on your way to be one of the best rappers in history if you keep doing what you're doing because you have every single like I'm looking at the ingredients when I'm mad I'm looking just like what is missing you have everything don't change thank you thank you so much for sure no just like what professorjoyce des was saying like I view jiu-jitsu as one aspect of life right and being a black bow royalty means you do we have to strive to be a black belt world champion in every aspect of life right so that's like how we should live like we shouldn't be just a win a medal and then in other aspects of life be so shitty you know so I feel like that's so important and like I hope that my career in jiu-jitsu could people could see and I could maybe change the shape the scope of how people are doing things and not just to look for money so I talking crap on the internet you know to me it's embarrassing you know cuz it's a jiu jitsu supposed to be a classy sport it isn't supposed to be low-class like that you know and martial arts teachers respects and respect and values you know so even if you don't learn those values are respect in home in your house you should be learning it in the gym you know and without doing that respecting values what are we thank you thank you well so what are we without those values Thank You Mikey thank you for being you and I want to do this again at some point later back doctor said you have your sister at some point as well and yeah it was a pleasure I hope you guys enjoy and yeah off the next clip thank you guys [Music]