BTG 10 - ADCC 2019 Review

[Music] hey what's going on David Avalon here with Robert Drysdale for another episode of breaking the guard we're fresh off a TCC 2019 World Championships and me and brother haven't had a chance to talk to each other yet so this will be our first time together an assessment there was no like we it was such a rush after we were planning and doing this in California be off right after the show was over but it was just it was impossible way too much going on but here we are absolutely so I I guess we should start off with the thing that's freshest in my head which is the absolute division and go backwards because the absolute division was amazing right yes a lot of fantastic fights I think the final kind of fizzled out but I think the opening rounds of action were great and I think a guy that stood out the most was obviously Lachlan Giles yes yes scoring three inverted heel hook finishes I think on it yeah well regarding Walker this fresh on my mind I think if you looked at that open right before it started you would have not you would have put him on like the top three guys not to win kind of thing I'm not insult but do you want at the bracket like with all those names right but at the same time that was his biggest advantage yes I felt they underestimated it yes 100% they did Sarah I was watching with one of my friends there and I was he had first round I don't know his name Canyon High kinda I know okay kind unworthy it was just a 99 kilo champion yeah fresh off the wind biggest guy and best guy itself wasn't upset for that division yes yeah but uh he's grappling I'm watching like you know Giles has a very good leg lock game yeah and going against a bigger guy that's actually an asset in his corner because bigger guys have more things to hang on to bigger legs less flexibility and slower yeah you know so like those help the leg walk out right so I almost and it was just right after I said there's a goat man wouldn't this be something if he catches him with a he'll hook right now what an upset yeah and then like 10 seconds later brought him caught him with a heel hook yeah you know and I felt like from that point on like you can keep doing this yeah you know and what was less likely to happen the second time because a surprise element a theory is out the window yeah you would think you would think but it seemed like everybody stepped into his open guard you know like they were standing trying to pass with the leg on a minibike man that's that's a big no-no against a heavy leg Locker I don't know which is funny because when people faced Craig Jones like a Mateus or when they faced Gordo Ryan they do the right thing where they stay really low head sanded with their head so they can't get underneath them but like I guess they must have felt like oh he's just a little guy what's he gonna do was a big part of the equation I think it was the under estimating first of all he's a little guy he's unknown yeah I was actually walking after the term I was you know walking towards my car and like what regard he was walking same direction so I start talking to him and he goes so do you know get that guy was you know because I know yeah I've seen the people Patrick goes had no idea I never seen him before you know and then that was Lawson's biggest advance one of his bigger the bench leather that being exceptionally skilled in that particular area he was very I think he caught a lot of people off-guard because he's smaller yeah and when you're in a heavyweight division you're not studying the 66 Kuehl division yeah they'll often lost his first fight in his division yes why who ever fought I can remember who it was did his homework you prepare Thank You Luca slippery okay which is but I regardless of it being Lukas leopard you don't talk about that - ah I can guarantee you Lucas did his homework because when you get the bracket three weeks before who's gonna be in the bracket it was in your division what do you do if you're smart competitor what do you do we study every manager - homework yeah you think by trey Gowdy Oh Muhammad Ali and keine are studying anyone in the 66q division it wouldn't make sense and it was just like one of those things were everything a line for this to happen because these guys had no idea we was he was an up-and-coming guy or I relatively unknown for now in at least in the competition circuit and he's has an exceptionally skilled game at something that these guys do not practice as often and add that the fact that they were you know they probably looked at him when IO figure us out like how like there was no game plan it was kind like you said they walked in understanding they were letting them put him in like single eggs and 5050 and there's like men you don't do that with a guy that attacks the legs wall you know you got a play exactly you said like centered so I think the under estimating factor was a really really big one and the other thing is that he has a unique approach to attacking the feet that is different than what you will see from Gordon or Gary or the DDS guys which I saw video this a while back and I thought was a very interesting concept where right now like a lot of the people were preaching attack control Danny line if you control the knee line you're gonna get the leg lock it's particularly when you're doing that saddl you know for loving position but he said no focus on controlling the actual foot if you can hold the foot in place the knee line will come after that yeah and if you see when he's grabbing he's actually holding the toes holding the heel sometimes he does like a rear-naked type grip just to control the foot not trying to submit and you can see like in certain cases the neat line wasn't there yet but Danny way yeah yeah ready to spring thank you shot in and that makes perfect says I remember like so many times where I thought the guys and he's were out and I thought they thought it was out too when kinda the knee was like right on that the front you're like were he cause like he's caught and he's safe he was right there and you can see it kinda is almost like relaxed yes fine five phenomena it was like a fast tap because like I think Phil Lachlan is like he knows exactly where that border is right and knows exactly where to put when to pull the trigger but here I never thought about that but that makes sense to keep secretary Craig does that to it keeps sucking in that foot all the time eventually opportu is gonna present itself I think these guys are a little overconfident and he's on the outside all the time I'm good I'm good good and then when it's in for that split second you get caught it's all over and he was also using a lot of 50/50 and that I don't believe any of the leglocks if I might be wrong but I don't believe any of them were from the saddle or just were you seeing a lot of people doing their work here he was actually doing like I think he calls it like outside something outside sankaku it's kind of like the 50-50 but that instead of the legs being crossed over by the hip they're being crossed over on top of the thigh there so I think all those things made it a very different situation then then the fact that the knee line was safe and thing a lot of people had false confidence that they were okay until a warrant yeah you could even see that Gordon and Ryan played a little bit with him and he almost got caught like there was a few times I Giles had a good bite and then I mean I was thinking in my head if I'm Gordon I'm just gonna smash pass and I'm triangle yeah and then sure enough go ahead like to forget this I'm not gonna play with his feet anymore and got the arm triangle for that back exposure yeah it was definitely very impressive I think he was there's so many upsets this tournament and like somebody stand out test and stand out I think walking was definitely how about a hard time picking between him and rule the tyro Tolo it's a one of those suits because tie what I did to music very impressive absolutely in 16 years old blue belt and beating brough Rosato Mantovani and then he be you know what he was beating Candida my CL the whole time yes having a couple submissions or he that aren't the Darce choke in the regulation was really close to yes they were though there was one point where you see like my sales face yeah turning but like it felt like he was too deep yeah and he was too deep a and he didn't roll on top listen what you have to do because it's harder to finish when you're bottom that you don't have grabbed and said you gotta walk north south put them on their hip and then you put them away with gravity right I think that and I'm like commentating I'm right where I'm like right next him I'm almost when I pull my math mic out and like bro do this you know because I was really rooting for him this fight oh absolutely it was I mean oh myself again talking about a different division but I was a big surprise the tournament I think those two you know I think yeah they do standoff he egg Rodriguez of course stunt to they all you know like some of these guys really impressed me is John blank had a good John blank had a very good eye yeah did better than I think everyone thought he was gonna do I think he was expecting to that well yeah I'm everything I was telling you before hand like he's very good submission ability but he was facing such tough opposition early on like I don't know I was surprised he got roast on with the heel hook because yeah there's a I don't have you seen that video roast em he gets caught like in early not in like a calf slicer that was a disgusting like yeah like might you feel like you're throw up watching it he just eats it like nothing so in my mind I got this guy's on top of a bowl on the legs you know I see I'm covered and the he common I since I he'll hook and I go and I can be caught you know like this is the reminder like I always tell people like everybody's human I think I just supposed to this today yeah you know everybody's human like there's nobody that's superhuman that you can't know absolutely and yeah roosters that keep definitely that hard guy to top but like I think your joints are all different because you're flexible in the elbows I mean you're not you to flex bone you're healed right so yes you know really top of the calf slicer it really wasn't you know I'm hurting feeling in the calf or the knee but the heel hook is just one of those man it's a short lever does anything inside you look yeah temporary around with that very fast what else so going back to the open what else stood out I thought I thought Gordon had an easier route than Busha overall he Gordon had a very easy route but not on fault of his own you know because first of all nobody expected Lachlan to this did we did do what he do it and you know most people would have saw that as a con yin would have been the guy he would have faced again I or or he never faced him so it would have been him but then you know Lachlan won that and then he won the next one against Patrick audio yeah which another one would you think that would have not had been oh god you almost beat Gordon the nogi world yeah it's very close to beating him so he was like a guy that could have potentially you know given order and run for his money and then on the other side he had an edema which that flying who hooked that Gordon did I think was some really nice submissions but I think that one took the cake it was probably the best submission of all time very well execute perfect timing perfect technique he didn't even have to rip it you know like it was like it was already set in and I am a big Najimy fan but I always said the runner commentate afraid to be with brawl there was always like very surprising and interesting that Edwin would walk in with I got I got tall Stan yes he's so confident in his counters and and and his scrambling ability and that's where the best of Edwin comes out is when he's like really tall and countering right but he's very unusual but again this is a DCC and I don't think and a Gary being a specialist attacking two legs it's kind of a scary thing to do to keep your legs so exposed you know but as soon as he got that clinch with with Edwin he just jumped it was beautiful man yeah that flying scissor I think it was like scissors for the tie me like it was just like they were drilling man like it was flawless yeah and you could tell it this throat totally cut I went off guard because he didn't even have a chance to do anything it was just like set right within the game it was a fastest omission or one of the fastest and least I would have to leave it was 10-15 seconds it felt like to me so that was really impressive so that really favored Gordon regardless of the match being real or not there's been a lot of talk about that match being real you know like you need contrast the other side of Bragg Boucher Muhammad Ali that's a clash of time that's a that's a full-on wrestling match you see those two they're gonna go just like that's gonna wear you out because both of them have very similar style sadly he had to go against Tim sprigs and you can tell that's a war - that was a war - and like tactical errors and I want to talk about that later on but like Tim made some tactical errors that cost my match because he Austin on - point because he went for a takedown and he pulled too soon yeah and it's like but like he was doing really well you know and almost had a [ __ ] a guillotine yes his guilting was on fire that time yeah you could call Felipe with it yeah and then he caught the opening round who was it I heard that I believe it was injured op I was thinking was your gob yeah and then he caught almost caught Muhammad with it was like that I'll show ya elbow high yellow team yeah very impressive performance by Tim - and then we had the final well let's talk about the third place first those Muhammad Ali and Locke and kind of talk about that right I kind of knew that was gonna happen the same day I look same yellow because unfortunately Ali doesn't really have good leg lock defense yeah you know like and it was just in the past a DCCC phase buchecha and position just did it regular ashley gourami heel hook yeah and ali rolled the wrong way yeah right to me that's like someone who hasn't trained leg locks enough and doesn't even know the right way oh yeah so when I saw going and locking like oh he's gonna get caught and like was on fire man he was his damn it for sure you know it was it's almost like too bad he had Gordon and not the other side of the bracket because who knows he might have made it the final yeah I mean would have been interesting for him that give your the face Boucher I don't know if he would have I don't think Boucher would have fell for it like or maybe which is more more skilled when it comes to late-game than all of those other guys yeah I think patrique which had a lot of good but he looked old I haven't seen an attack for logs on fifty-fifty but I could be wrong wish is very versatile fifty-fifty and and generally speaking the IBF leaveleave all the clocks at least right but uh no I mean he goes on fire could have been a even bigger upset imagine tapping Boucher yeah and then we had the final what are your thoughts on that final it was one of the most boring finals I can recall I whatever it's the point it was right and to be fair I don't think it's Gordon's fault right Gordon went to his butterfly guard yeah she's trying to play his leglock game right and so Boucher was overly cautious yes to the point where he was very hesitant to engage and kind of similar to the Mateus and Craig Jones match yeah except the difference was that Craig Jones lost patience and then got desperate and made a tactical error yeah I gave up a point where as Gordon was a lot more disciplined yeah and he's like I know I'm pushing the action they're gonna eventually give him a stalling point yeah I just gotta keep doing what I'm doing yeah and I sure enough we show she got the sawing point one by that but like such a lame I wasn't I was expecting more aggression on I think Gordon definitely was trying more but even he could have been more aggressive I felt like I think they were both overly cautious even though like I don't disagree that with the penalty of the bush I think that was way too cautious if you ask me and I don't know if it was just like one of those things were he just because we should just know me the guy that pulls a trigger at some point you know I never really did that fight I would say in general the Bhushan looks very off yeah you know or the whole tournament he wasn't here's just what I own it I could be wrong Dave it has once so much you said I'm saying I think about that like he's got 13 black gold world titles was it 12 12 or 13 like that's a record you know so what an ADC see open way class change his life what is he gonna do for him in reality it's it's a missing title but yeah it's I'm just saying that there's a distinction as far as motivation correct yeah Gordon just Scott I mean he's fairly much younger than wishe it's like fairly younger to the scene he field he has a lot more know he's hungrier for it he's definitely hungry exactly I was those that's that's what I want to say yeah kiss buchecha the whole tournament looked very lackluster compared to yeah other events were seen him where he just on fire yeah he goes on fire like he he just barely got by Braga mentally barely you know other matches too it's just like this guy he did just enough just to win right and kinda yeah yeah he did destroy anybody I mean not that I recall that can recall he didn't like obliterator know he was barely squeaked by each guy I agree and whereas Gordon and he was he was blue or anybody apart except two people Lucas which he had a tough match with but he won with a back take and then of course with vishesha but it was just a non-engagement yeah although there's a there's a situation I want to watch again cuz one time which I had a headlock and Gordon set and in my head that's two points because you never started because you have a single or a double have your three seconds just sit that's nothing but on Ferhat front headlock I'm not sure what the rules say because he sat from the front headlock and that's another thing I want to talk about at some point here Davis the rules there's a whole they kept the grid there's not only there are a lot of gray area it's like the judges kind of kept that gray area we're in charge of this gray area don't want decide on the spot what is and what isn't and the criteria is like far less clear to me now than it was before is it you see because I'm not sure what's what the criteria thing that he'd spent some time figuring out rules and a bigger rulebook to make it very clear and definite competitors what's acceptable what's not yeah actually that's funny I was chatting with Vinny my list yeah and I because he had a similar situation where they given his opponent two points when he thought it was gonna be zero because he had cooled in a certain way and then he showed me the contrast with the situation of Boucher yeah where there you can look at it it doesn't look like it was a three-second hold because for my understanding it doesn't matter who does it if you go turtle three seconds regardless of how you got there and then you pull then it doesn't count so but like the timing on the one that the clip I saw did not appear to be three seconds it appeared to be like a second for Vinny for another four gordon-gordon right so that you were saying you see they did this but then it might match when he three second hold and then they still penalized them and he was the one who pulled because he shot yeah and then three seconds and then pulled guard and they get the opponent to yeah so he's like everything is should have been a minus one if it was something yeah it should have been zero because there was a three-second so like you're saying the ambiguity you know you said that the gray area is a perfect way nothing's black and white in those type of weird rules so it's like maybe this guy thinks is one way there's the other so it's like I just like Vinny was saying I just want consistency I just want to know every time the situation happens like it's not a coin toss where's always 50/50 like I should be a hundred percent I know if I do this I'm gonna get points or not get points you know how to prepare you know you make the right decision like I can't like I wonder what's gonna happen you want to know what's gonna happen when you go like left or right and you know there was definitely yeah with the front headlock thing even if it is three seconds I'm pretty sure you can't sit that's not on your takedown you have to be going for a takedown and any consent in a headlock or it could be a defensive action as well right are you sure yeah so yeah if you double like me take me down I go on my fours three seconds roll the guard nothing yeah that's why it's so hard to score it's a thing that I hate the most about the rules I might as well talk about rules since we're yeah I've been it right like to me the problem with ADCC and if some matches are amazing like that opening round all submissions a lot of action great but then you have some matches like the finals there or even with the Craig Jones final with potatoes just boring as hell yeah because everybody's being so cautious because they know if you get one point you're done already oh yeah it's so hard it's so hard to score right so like what you need and I we I have to look back and see it how many or times happen but at least like thirty percent of the matches went over yeah right and wait - I was gonna say I've never seen a sport where so many over times yeah this is it's unheard of yeah and no point score like and then a lot of Americans are like soccer yeah well you scored like eighty CC is like weig words like no points ever no points at all the time constantly right so yeah that's a problem right so the problem to me that you need to make it easier to score make some changes because I rather see like a 10-7 versus a 0-0 yeah that means I know that points are supposed to be Ward positive behavior which ideal sense is supposed to be promoting for ending the fight but also from The Spectator standpoint it's entertaining yeah alright like oh this guy did a good technique and MZ warded so I think the first loophole they have to kill is that turtle rule yeah and what I referred to think is like any time an ACC if you're doing a takedown or a sweep and you get taken down you go to turtle you hold the position for three seconds and then you go to guard nothing happens zero points right at any point of the match to me is ridiculous because the whole point be trying to take down as sweep is getting top position so if if you're on top of me and I sweep you and then you go to turtle and then you go three seconds you go back to your guard I'm still on top yes you accomplished your mission I accomplished my mission so like whatever you did means no I will first step further I think if you're in turtle we should be two points you're on top and like oh you know what you're not holding on his back it's not wrestling or judo if this were a fight I'd be punching your that watch the UFC yes like it's a number one TKO position is what turtle position yeah that is a very dominant position in a fight like the fact that I would rather be internal than in guard half guard or sigh control for that matter yeah if I could pick a place to start a fight that's not like a submission yeah it would be turtle yeah I mean other than the back maybe like I would rather be in turtle than outside control half guard because it's it's I mean in a fight and a fight it's a dumb position and a TCC as well I think I agree with you I think that they have to change the rules the most absurd thing I saw was the fact that they were letting the fight go not only out of bounds we're talking on concrete yes and they were still and everyone's waiting like you know and they don't say stop and then they're gonna find out what's gonna happen and the action is still going people are scoring points on concrete does it match was like you should've been stopped like 15 seconds ago they're still going on conquering the match is just going on and three people got seriously injured right there was UDC moans he hurt his knee you had a Philippe Pinel popped his rib and then I saw Mike Perez crack his head open that was bleeding you know so I was like come on guys we gotta stop we gotta know you would he got his back taken by kinda like the whole sequence to the back took place out of bounds like none of it was started inside the whole sequence and what you have to watch it was like like a ten second sequence oh and then the judge is just like looking like the referee is just like looking at it doesn't do anything I'm like and these are the things that they absolutely need to fix and I have a theory of why it's going on they don't have enough math is it ABC very few matches and they only referee what once every two years imagine if you only trained every two years so what happened here jiu-jitsu yeah it wouldn't be great what it like you get rusty you know remember the rules you know what to do you know getting caught in the Triangle bad getting someone in a triangle good but you're not your decision making is not quite there so I think a lot of these referees I maybe like an experience and because like for example like trial and error is what perfects any system any system you have a frightening rule said anything your iphone like you use it enough you know apples basta mistakes what do they do they bring out an update right trial in there when you have a lot of competition like IV Jeff has a lot of tournaments they are able to spot the problems and they can what they can fix them they even up with a bigger rule book book true but those are what that is a consequence of what trial and error when you don't have a lot of experience what happens you end up with you know people that are unprepared because they just don't have that don't know how yeah and the last situations they never encountered and don't know how to handle yeah and there we go let it play through wingait yeah I thought they were winging it a lot of times you know like I don't know what to do uh you know this or that you know but it for the competitor that's a nightmare yeah does your life here that's your livelihood right there and it's the most important terminal on the for any you know grappler and they're not sure what the criteria are yeah and our balancing is the second biggest problem I think the turtle is that one is the biggest one closely followed by they're out of bounds because one is inconsistent because sometimes you see like what UD they let this situation play out and they restarted them for the same position at inside and sometimes you'll see someone score clean takedown and then they just start back on their feet it's like also like who's getting favoritism here like now between three wins and was not but like in general people are always gonna flee out because there's no penalty in like 99% of the cases you just get a restart from your feet so like of course so you're taking me down yeah I'm gonna go out of bounds you know and maybe I'm not even fleeing than that but I'm just backing up as you take me down and let it happen the other one that really I thought it was not corrected the sweep criterias not clear to me I mean Brawley we're talking we're like was done not sweeping we missing something they changed the rules it happened at least once in the gym Mill Hill and Nick your fight maybe twice can remember and in the Mason foul or fight against Craig Jones same thing he swept him like one of the points me and brawl they're like what are the points we're not understanding with the poin you know did we miss something yeah I remember the Nicky Ryan one with Jamel Hill said Jamel was on his back and he stood up with I think it was a single leg sore or whatnot but it ended up being like a single leg and I don't know okay so he's it was a mid sweep somehow as Jamila standing up Nikki Ryan got the single Jamil threw a Kimura trap but but he didn't hold it well and end up on his back and then they gave Nikki two for a takedown but anybody's like he started off his back yeah he's still in his bad there's no progress yeah so they said anything then you must have given him a sweep at some point for him to be able to get to take down again and I think that one thing that happens to is everyone's a little scared to complain ''tis you see because it's an invite tournament yeah one wants to talk about that but that dynamic is going on I can see from everyone's like biting their tongue because you know if you burn that bridge coming back you know even as a coach you're like okay you win nobody have it your way yeah you're gonna contrast how people complain in other table so there was no complaining yeah and people just used to see him eating it it's like because it's an invite base tournament like most people get invited and if you're a coach or a team leader in general you gotta go I don't want to screw everyone else for the next tournament you know but that's something that has to be discussed because it is a problem we can very clear I think that there's been some debate about this being the best 80cc ever in my opinion as far as techniques go it's been consistently getting better every single t-shirt right so that this one holds true to that pattern yes right but when it comes to the criteria or like so many over times I I think that was that what that was it was not bad that was not the best I thought a sets an excitement I think it was definitely up there you know I think it was a very good ACC yeah I think that like you're saying the scoring was really very inconsistent this time around like there was a lot of situations you're like what it's not making sense yeah so yeah I think the turtle things gotta go I think the out of bounds they should use they should penalize so either I think one of two things either if I do a takedown or a suite that lands out of balance whether or not I had control point yeah right whoever's on top you school something that way you know it's gonna discourage people from like oh you know even like if they wouldn't have finished in bounds I can't allow a takedown to start you know and move me out of bounds I'm not gonna move out of bounds to flee it because it's gonna hurt me or to me I like the extreme which is more black and white which is you get pushed out of bounds one point yeah I don't care what's going on you know you land up body part I bounce because then it's going to force people to stay in the middle and then you know when people stay in the middle and they're pushing into each other it's going to be a lot easier to score you know we should at some point maybe like sit down and discuss some of these like write down some suggestions and maybe send it some of the rest they take like because I hung out for years because I ran a grappling tournament my bar and I in Florida we call the International grappling championship it was back like in 2004 and we used this rule set it'll work great you know I don't think we had a maybe like a handful over times and hundreds of matches because the other thing I was gonna say a third thing is that people don't like pulling guard and then you see all these weird ways that people are trying to shoot all three seconds and pull because they don't want the minus point and then you're gonna lose the way we did it - you pull guard you lose a point yeah if I stand up I get a point right because I neutralized so I think what did I do I pull guard which I'm conceding top position yeah it's an inferior position so yeah you penalize yourself but I'm able to escape and get back to my feet I like a force never got to hold them down - yes and another way you take me down you get - I escape I get one why you couldn't control me I was able to get up and I had to use technique to stand up yes every Ward's their action I liked except prepares you for a real fight - yes exactly go out remember me you get down you get back I like that so that's smart I like that it also gives a guy on bottom a chance to score like just by standing up otherwise some people just concede and they just sit there and did nothing and it gets a little boring um so those are those I think we I think most people agree on some of these aspects of it easy to see the other one was there it was a very contentious 80cc in the sense where there was a clear rift beating the crowd and most competitors and in and I I considered a cultural shock Dave it's not just a matter of technique or you know I'm rooting for my team you're rooting for yours they're very different approaches to sport right there is been a lot of trash-talking from promoters from competitors from coaches and that is unusual in culture right that's something that's been on the rise for some for some time but this event it was like the culmination of that at that sort of behavior like we literally had Gordon flipping off the crowd you know at the after he won his fight you know which to me is like I can't imagine that happen in the Olympics because we're calling it easy to see the Olympics of grappling I cannot imagine that happening or in a corner a judo trip you imagine that a judo tournament or even collegiate wrestling I don't know that that happened no that would be big news if somebody imagine like Jordan burrows and like I can't imagine your Burroughs doing that after winning Olympic gold medal like flipping off the crowd like I just don't see that happening and then once the crazy part is like when you criticize these people they call you a hater because you want to plot their narcissism I was like you're acting like you're at odds with everything the sport represents which is respect yeah humility and then whoever criticizes that as a hater which is a strange dynamic to me like what's well you're the one who's aiding the crowd for not liking your you know childish behavior yeah similarly you had another form of this which was like cyborg when he lost yeah he started throwing a temper tantrum yeah then he actually just bowed out of the tournament kind of protest because he got upset and this is kind of yeah I think it was obviously because he was facing the same team because there's somewhere between him and yes so like I think to lose to one of their guys again and then again I was close zero zero ref decision that thing I don't think cyborg got ripped off I think it was close enough to go to Ghana either way if I were to judge I would have given it to cyborg because it was a submission I think you guys always valued submission more than position terms of reward person's right it makes more sense to me right but uh I don't I don't think he got ripped off but anyway I agree I think that anytime you you you don't accept defeat for what it is you know you don't blame the ref I mean even when you just I've been many times I disagree with rest oh yeah but I I think that a matter of the the cultural shock I'm really talking about Dave is like I I like the Japanese style I don't like that like the the the bow respect or Oh respective people who taught you the people came before you you don't use that you know when you're representing the sport you don't use foul language you avoid it at least you know and if we've swung all the way towards pro wrestling it's like it's so close to pro wrestling now I don't even recognize a sport and you can see because it's more of a Western tradition like you know the West comes from boxing it comes pro wrestling is huge in the West Japan soo but I think they take it differently they're like they don't say this hasn't gone over to the martial arts the real combat that sports like it doesn't transfer over right and you know it's to me it's odd I get in that sense I think it was the worst ad Soucy ever because I don't like the sort of behavior I don't think it belongs in martial arts but you know that specifically - as far as the the the lack of respect the competitors were showing - before during and after the fight yeah you know it goes against the ideals that we ascribe Lisa and Western society to the martial are just like you're saying it's humility respect honor and all that and when you have people flipping off the crowd or you have people talking trash it sets a bad example I think because ideally who we want the next generation to be the kids coming in and then they're looking at that and this is like part of the Conor McGregor fight as well which they realized you know it's much easier to get attention by slapping people and theirs by shaking their hand yeah so now everybody's going around it's like a slap fast now yeah it's it's unfortunate but it's a reality of human psychology like I always said like if I could walk up to you and I slap you in the face you remember me for the rest of your life yeah but random guys shake your hand you're free so we remember paying more than you remember like a good memory so everybody's lasting impression when they see someone do this shock culture stuff yeah it's always gonna stick you know but it just sucks it has to be that way well I I think that looked for example like I could bring them there are certain IBJJF rules I don't like I've never liked them but I've used them to my favor can you call me a hypocrite I've watched the father giving this a lot of thought I don't like the rule I think it's crazy right but I use that in my favor because the rules allow me to there are tax loopholes in this country I think ruptured I've used them like everyone else yeah I don't like them I think they're crazy but I use them am i a hypocrite if there's a rule I don't like in a tournament right I don't can't call the competitor hypocrite I don't blame these guys so much for doing it because they get rewarded for it and they're getting money you know I want to mean I don't agree with it but I understand what they're coming from right what I don't understand are people people will applaud that behavior that I don't get because like if I saw someone me if my children behaved like that like I'd smack them like you don't behave like that that's not how you treat other people regardless of even if someone had said something first you still don't do it I think it's wrong it's did you know two wrongs don't make a right you know something's wrong it's wrong in principle and a story but this doesn't seem to be the case like people actually it's like the crazier you behave the more ignosi asyou are and I think it's I mean you mentioned human psychology I think that there's an aspect of human psychology but we know that the opposite is possible because we've seen it as well I think it depends what kind of what which plant you water you know you water the one that you know breeds arrogance oh the one that Brees humility and respect but it depends at which direction we go as a society but it's I think it's a symptom David of something much bigger than jiu-jitsu or grappling for that it's something that's you know we watched the rise of not only Conor with the Kardashians you know or the Paris Hilton's of the famous for being famous and be obnoxious online and people loved it and and that's what's so odd to me is that people love that sort of behavior so much I want to be entertained are you the back why can you not entertain yourself with good technique like that's what I'm after man I want to see the flying heel hooks man the jumping guillotines the the slams the arm bars the transitions what what's wrong with that is that so what why why can't that entertain people maybe I'm different I don't need to soap opera I don't need this trash-talking I think grappling is amazing for what it is technically the the hype is not it's completely unnecessary it doesn't make me like jujitsu more it makes me a little dislike it if anything yeah no I agree I like I always like the guys where I consider good ambassadors of the sport you know that's why I like when we had Mikey like it was some refreshing is a young guy these guys head on straight you know and I think I've heard a little bit from timer too low he seems like a really nice cat - and so that's promising you know but we do have these people who are just exploiting the tendency of people to want and well your time I was true though like you don't see this happen in the Olympics or and to a lesser extent this doesn't really happen too much in professional sports again MBA because it athletes get sanctioned or they get penalized right because the NFL and stuff they say well these are ambassadors of our brand and they're making us look bad we're not gonna get the sponsors but blah so at some point you wonder if people and grappling or you know even in mixed martial arts start holding those type similar standards to their athletes like you know you can't go around smacking people or smashing cellphones but at this moment is rewarded right they look at the UFC blows hearted yeah it blows we look at a you know like Gordon he's gonna be awarded you know the crazy like so much coverage from flow grapple yeah like you said you can't blame him like you it's almost it says they it'd be stupid not to do it because think he's blowing up I'd blame more the crowd than him but with a crazy thing is that you get a guy Connor when he throws a trolley at a on a bus or like he punches some old guy at a bar that helps him oh yeah that's insane to me that's something like that actually helps him I think he does a [ __ ] on purpose oh yeah he breaks someone's phone because it actually makes some more money so it's like we're living in this crazy time and I can't I will not give in this is a I think there's an expression of human nature it is not the only expression H we have seen better but we're living at a time where the crazier you are the more disrespectful the more arrogant the more ignorant or ignorant you are the better like people are applauding idiots like let's let's you know it like every person who acts like a total idiot gets put on a pedestal and the people who act respectfully like I know I'd follow a goose to a man just thank you for all the many many years I have never seen that guy say a bad word about anyone yeah I have never seen him disrespect anyone you know he's not loud most people even know you even complain when he want I can I said like when you guys gonna give me some my proper recognition I've won this this this this I've been winning consistently for 15 years I've been everyone in the business and you guys have given me zero media when he's absolutely correct and I was falling like that the feed you know and it was like for every post of these other guys were like six seven of Gordon and you know and that is right there I don't blame flow grappling either that is a reflux of the cloud yeah that's what the third goal it's a business they're trying to go we're like what are the the analytics saying right they don't give more recognition for this you go in that direction as a business decision right I mean I personally wouldn't you know I would I wouldn't do that person but I can understand what they're coming from but when it comes to the crowd rewarding that that's what's so unusual to me like that's me of the big mystery I think it's it's a it's a cultural trend that I hope changes because it's not I think it's not the best representation of the human spirit it definitely isn't you know hopefully that turns but yeah we'll see okay yeah I'm sorry I just left I heard saw today Nick Rodriguez was being everybody and someone like someone interviewer like and they asked them so you think cyborg is done which to me is this such a disrespectful question so I broke his 39 it has absolutely nothing to prove granted I don't agree with his behavior after the fact yeah I get that but the fact that anyone can even ask that question such an idiotic question dice 39 look at what he's done how dare you even ask the question yeah to me you know and then the response is I don't think he was ever there and this is coming from a guy was like in his early 20s and he's saying that the side Brook was like double his age like it's so it's it's it's gone beyond disrespectful man like we've reached this whole new level of like you know like forget the people who have paved the way the road that you walk on you are walking on a road that was paved by the people you're disrespecting and no one seems to think that's a problem it's like they get applauded for it like it's like morality got flipped on its head David like I don't even know I just doesn't make sense to me like it's a big mystery and like I said I hope it stops at some point hopefully you know and I'm not sure no my egg is getting worse because now the young generation is watching Michael that's what I got to do now we're gonna have a lot of teenagers and it's oh it's not gonna be one Gordon in the future yeah it's gonna be an army cool man I'm I hope I'm no longer around you Jitsu way then I hope I don't wanna be around to see it it's gonna be ugly well let's get back to some of their recap things I do want to talk about some one of the upsets particularly in the women's under sixty Keela that that was a big one yeah we definitely were surprising that I think well be a faced off with Fiona Fiona knows us and you know we had and everyone had me I think I think beyond David probably everything everyone had be in the begin of the tournament like she was a favor to win and fee on surprised everybody got a guard past went to the mound got a mounted triangle and then be a started turning it became like an inverted a reverse triangle and then switched off to an armlock and what a national happy as it is a trooper she ate it probably more than I wish she would she if she does if she tapped it's because there was no wavered I think she'd like like hung in there way longer than she should have yeah I'm hoping she dislocated her elbow and not much more everything that's one everything look like because they move it was such a big jump I think it was at this location which is actually better it is better than tearing out or breaking a bone or something no but yeah it was a brutal harbor and then you had the twist on the other end where that fiown goes up against Bianca the finals and then she gets booed Alito holded yeah it has to be carried out so is that you live by the sword if it was yeah it was it was a that was a big upset I did not expect fee on to beat um yeah yeah the other upset was I want to talk about upsets now done to Leona Lucas Leopard I had Lucas to be JT in the final I had JT and like I think I was gonna win man taunting it's very impressive man that's a huge one yeah big feather this up right there and I think it's one of those its kind of feel bad for a liver because he's one of so much already and when a TCC is the one thing that keeps his scape in him and Ike is so close he's lost two finals and now he lost an up-and-coming guy huge win for Dante I I had that was a big subset determined at that point and then afterwards were so many like I don't even know which one is the biggest upset at this point yeah it's it's hard to cover them all but uh yeah that was an interesting matchup JT did really well you'd be back there he went to the whales like he [ __ ] perfectly yeah made no tactical mistakes and he beat up Ward in the semis right I think it not not Gordon on time Gary yeah every time is a huge win yeah back take that was the best garri I've ever seen by the way Gary looked phenomenal yeah it was like because like he's been doing him in May so I'm thinking his you know his submission game may be less sharp because he's gonna be working his hands you know so it's okay dressing whatever best carry I've ever seen yeah he looked great I thought the same thing I thought well he's focusing MMA he was like a kind of a last minute replacement type deal filling in for somebody or not last minute but you know he wasn't in there the whole time somebody you know he's probably just doing this to have fun because he's a funny guy and he had the best outfit there and I was pretty funny yeah okay Uncle Sam yeah he's a one guy that I like his sense of humor because it's very self-depreciating I mean like it makes us look like a clown yeah but it worked out from but his wrestling was on point like he's mad rest in his on point we're not to connote he was trying to throw buys and shucks although we're playing it's like really good resting so that's why I was even more impressive JT just again was able to put it on him like JT time a TCC champion amazing performance really impressed with JT especially because he's not living in San Diego anymore he lives got his own gym which has responsibilities that means he's got more more things to do man like in less time to train and focus on himself so very impressive but you know he carried the vibe of being a champion Yeah right like when he was challenging for he was at the Challenger position I don't know there's a different aura people give off you know in me like he when he's in there now it's like he is the man yeah yeah so like I think that carries a lot of weight when you have that belief in yourself so and it showed because he played an excellent and it was he was consistent throughout the whole event yes distantly good well-rounded and I remember he was fighting Vagner Vagner was really trying to get in was that getting emotional like because that's what Vagner has like if I upset you now you act emotionally you make more mistakes right he was stoic the whole time he kept this cool like hiss expression didn't change it just like I got a mission I'm focused on the mission so very impressive performance by JT who else I'm trying to think we had spoke of tie the women's division gabby winning to be over sixty kilos yeah no surprises no surprises there she's a four-time a TCC champion now again like who's gonna stop her so anyways yeah tough one all that go cutting a son she did really good she beat not jelly ages which I did not expect was a good win overall man I think technically like I said which is really what I'm looking at like I I don't like the other things I talked about like the disrespect you know though I think the roughing was pretty bad the judging in the ref you but uh you know what I'm really after my favorite thing about the sport has always been the the display of techniques and in that regard I think that you just have still been proven man like I think Lachlan is a keep the king of he looks not anyone like he what if the stuff he was doing was on a different level man it was very very yeah you know he's display of the techniques and to get in there was was beautiful to watch I get this beautiful technique you're gonna see everybody's gonna start working at now my it was funny on that on Instagram he had put a post there and then Ali goes we need the DVD as soon as possible and then he tacked Patrick audio and Kanye appreciating quote but like it's it's I like that I think that's the way should be you know and loved one he's a class act how did he act when he won yeah he was happy celebrated with his wife and it was respectful he has an act like an idiot you know and that's and in minutes it's beautiful when you win and congratulations congratulations to Gordon and everyone else when it compete in the tournament if you're there you're awesome you're incredible you know but let's let's keep the culture awesome but a another thing I wanted to talk about I was a gal vow with Felipe panic yeah that's right first of all gave out looks enormous like a drug Renault yeah yeah he's like my god man he was so vascular it was crazy and I think his game plan for Felipe was very intelligent I think I was surprised to come down so early in the fight but I think he did it to wear him out he wanted to wear Phillippi out and I was clearly a strategy not quite sure why he took him down so early if I when there are no points yeah but the game plan worked because he beat Philly because Phillippi got tired I was very confused as what Felipe was hoping to achieve because he got in a bunch of times where he'd be he'd get on the leg get towards the back and he would have like kind of like a calf slicer but not really and my mind like oh he's gonna hit her I I didn't think he was gonna go for a leg lock I thought he's gonna use this to climb go for the back but he never did right he did like five or six times where he would get that position worked to get it but then he was just sick there and then he eventually got out what just escaped so like I wasn't sure like how he was seeing himself winning this fight I don't know if you had any ideas about that about about Felipe pennant strategy because I wasn't clear in what his strategy was yeah because he kept the same thing but I don't know you know what I'm talking about gonna get under the leg and gab our turn and he would be like in a calf slicer not really yeah but I figured he's not gonna try to leg luck go back I was very good leg lock the offense I thought maybe because I've seen people do that where they get to the castle and position but then they use that pressure to climb up the back and I know he's gonna be back taking guys that's what he's doing Billy he never used you know I think physically he seemed off I saw I think I saw something on his Instagram don't call me but I think he had some health issues before and I can see that because physically I wasn't quite there like you can see his reaction was a little off he got way to tie are way too fast like he was not as explosive and as dynamic as he normally is I had him as being the more dynamic one of the fight I thought Andrew would gas before he did but like nug Andre Gaston mound exactly I thought booty believe it was his game plan because he executed it perfectly and you know huge win you know I was the best on during I want ever seen by the way yeah I mean guys freaking monstrous then you have that match up with him and so there I guess they're saying he's gonna stick around with her to you yeah yeah I don't know me know what he doesn't have to he doesn't have to he's got absolutely nothing to prove man like what an amazing career he know me and MMA how many people can say that yeah it made unique stellar but he fought you know you gotta have him credit for that so yeah it's a hard thing to do know for sure those crosses over again doing different sports yeah and and he's been doing that and not only that he is put together arguably the best team in the world yeah it's a pretty good resume so I give under a lot of probably my opinion he should retire I don't think he's got a thing to prove but if final under a he's not yeah I think if I if I know him well enough he's gonna do it again and I hope he does but I hope you retire soon which one I want I would like to see him with Gordon but I I think he should retire you know I did he's got nothing proven there would be an interesting matchup because Gordon you know whether or not you like the antics right now he's on his path to being the best America not on their space no geek rapper that's no he yeah yeah I mean I know the America like everyone I think because of his age and his spin his talent I think he has the potential to be to break Garcia's record under his record he has that kind of potential yeah the only thing he can stay sane because he's so nauseous I was the kind of guy that goes like off on a tangent in life you know and and if he can keep saying you know maybe but like it it's um when you're too that much of a narcissist man like it could your life can take some funny terms you know yeah the only thing he doesn't have is a solid wrestling game like he has some wrestling but if you compare him and go though yeah I would come over yeah I think yeah I think there's a reason why he wanted to sit with Busha Shah you know as soon as you could because we should show without wrestling yeah yeah so I agree that's probably like the the the weakest aspect of his game not that it's weak yeah nothing we were relative to everything else in this game it's a weak point like obviously his bottom game is very good his top game passings very good sanitation games excellent it is so like I would want to see him evolve that wrestling game and round it off because if he developed that because that would be like if he faces against Cal eval that's gonna be the problem he's not gonna be able to out wrestle goes out with his current skill set so that gives give out a lot of room to wait he's getting bigger and bigger man I remember when I first saw first time I saw Goran could be I didn't know I know him now because he fought one of my students on an ACC trial that was in Florida maybe like 2015 you fought Kyle Griffin Col most beautifully Adam he was winning till he made like a dumb mistake and Gordon got his back but he was doing really well and that was the first night he was like a skinny skinny kid man so he's been gaining away so by the time he fights under in two years is probably gonna be I don't know I knew I get this short he's always gonna be a lot smaller I know boy I've always been like out of my first met he was a featherweight but you like up 16 years old but he's like good foot shorter yeah he's not tall they're not tall [ __ ] massive I don't think there would be a good at least strength disparity I don't think that'd be any I don't know I I'm like the concept of strengthen me it's so it's so little to do with actual size I'm the strongest people I've ever met were like skinny they did would did in male lion like Garcia's stupid strong I didn't look it I know most people do I my brother actually grabbed him and my brother's like anybody likes to talk about more cylinders here like he's like suave romantic man like he grabbed him either he traced drawing his legs like tree trunks or like crazy strong too like he's like he's ridiculously strong yeah look I don't correlate size and strength like you I think for bodybuilding yeah poor powerlift that makes that's true when it comes to grappling some of the strongest people ever met didn't look strong at all they were like skinny and completely so I think there's something there but it's not as there's a lot more going on it comes to proudly strength and size ya know I've seen that all my life because I've never been muscley like that my arms never get big or anything that but I would I might I'd be wrestling I see guys like freaking giant arms and they're not throw them around like they felt like hollow you know I mean so yeah I I agree that looks can be deceiving but I think in cases like guys like a vow or like Gordon I don't think they're deceiving I think they're yeah yeah I mean but it has to do with like the of course temporary all these ass [ __ ] I don't decide itself yeah yeah and yes the last thing we can talk about before we close off there was quite a few tactical errors said I saw that it's like when people do like they think you were doing so well and you just mean a goof that cost you the match right like the first one I could think of was with Elvira where I had picked her to win in chest facing Bianca they were tied and they went to overtime and the overtime everyo ProGuard pools guard immediately get some - one yeah I was like oh no why did you do that she stood up and then pulled guard again and got an eye - one yeah I'm like somebody stop that's Paula Miele does that every single time he's fully aware of it but it's just like it's about to get - one that have to wrestle and at some point I think he did try to wrestle someone there who was it can remember but he's just like his wrestling is just so not there you know but we don't have that skill like you just rather give away the point or is it just like they're forgetting about the rules maybe no because like she can wrestle because then think she got up and she started wrestling with that Bianca was doing how they're holding her own but she ended up losing by those - points and then similar thing happened to Craig Jones where he got impatient because Matteo's was yeah plain safe he was aggressively stalling like he's shoving him but like not entering the guard and at some point Craig stood up shot pulled and he did it too quickly yeah got a - point tactical mistakes were but and that's another one where the judging was kind of inconsistent because he actually shot in and then pulled yeah so that should have been a minus one but they actually gave it a two yeah and then Matthias was actually given a minus point out so it would have been a tied match at some point you know so I don't know but like yeah I feel like competitors do you have to be really patient you have to have faith in your game oh it's it's there's no home to cry tears on clear it's hard to be tactical to that's another thing like I've been like situations where oh my god not sure what the rough is gonna do so I'm like I don't know what to do not because I don't know what's best for me it's because I don't know what his criterias are yeah you know if you don't know the criteria it's very difficult to make an instructive decision yeah so I mean our hope for the I will I don't think is likely but I would hope they would listen alright like but you know idle day that's gonna happen there I think they're pretty set in how they want to run their forward and it's it's a very like um it's it's it's it's a weird dynamic because it's you know like they they seem to be just like improvising a lot of times I mean like they don't quite know what to do so to like do that and you know and not a lot of thought goes behind a lot of the things that they're doing I don't think you know and the experience is definitely not there yeah but overall like you said technique looks very good I had a couple of graphs or some people using cue more traps because they didn't execute proper taking yeah and I saw Jamel hill when he win against Nikki heat committed to similar that Vagner day which actually cost back down the match with JT because he went for the Kimura fell off knock out the behind then and then the scramble JT on his back right and it's something I see a lot where it's the similar error that in the UFC rose namajunas made that ended up getting her spiked in her head yes and Rajesh they're not using the leg hook number one yeah and you be what I tell people it's a Sumi guy ish all right but you're using a Kimura grip instead of grabbing the back so that leg hook in the inner thigh super important because I need to throw you yeah right what's happening they're just falling down and expecting like a guard pole yeah and then that that's gonna throw you over yeah you got a solid base and you know it's coming you're gonna sit and then I'm just gonna land in front of you right and now it relies on my cue more leverage which is the second thing they're falling without having enough shoulder pressure so they have the grip but like you know like when I talk about doing tomorrow I'm always driving behind the shoulder to double them over and they're not doing that so they're falling and the guys is looking at them and now you got a minus point or you're gonna scramble and expose your back so yeah I was let down a few the people that used it is like I need to clean up that technique a little bit so that you don't have those types of things because whenever you're doing techniques like that you have to have perfect to make that because and need open your back in this situation it cost you to match so David when it comes to our predictions I was wrong about almost everything about a lot I the one thing I did I was correct about and this is a prediction I've been calling for a long long time as wrestling was the decisive factor yes I think leglocks played a bigger role than I anticipated because of Lachlan because I'm if you took out the Laughlin factor then it would have been I would have been absolutely correct about that one - it was blown out of proportion when Lachlan you know like it was still below wrestling when the rankings that were cited factor but it was the lock could probably go K there's even more than I thought there was at this you know cuz I knew was it's a it's a huge world unexplored in many many many ways but it's even more an exporter originally thought so homework yeah you know so like you said there leglocks before lucky there was maybe like I think three he looks John Blank and when I think Craig Jones had well I think someone else had one but that was about it when they look in sir all the matches going on that's not a lot that's no no yeah but then lucky came in and he'll hook three people but I think it was a different variation right so it's not necessarily the same leg log game that was being played yeah so like everybody's already studied up in the old stuff and now we know this but rocky brought a little twist and then everybody was familiar with so now I expect hopefully he's got a DVD coming out so that he go I'm sure go monetize it all right then DVD sells to the roof you get that sub and then everybody's good you have to evolve and learn this new format and that's the way it should be yeah that's that's the the real the real winner here is is grappling and jujitsu is the technical developments that's the spectacle and we got to keep it that way absolutely yeah all right Dave I think that's it man yeah I hope you guys enjoyed the podcast share it with your friends and you know give us some feedback - I like criticism I'm the kind of guy I like who I like my friends better be critical of me I'm no interest of having yes-man around me so if you guys got any advice any suggestions please let us know yeah you could comment on the videos or just send us an email hit us up on social media and if you never have any ideas that people you want to see or things you want us to talk about again we're open to to taking those suggestions absolutely alright thank you guys [Music]