BTG 15 - BJJ vs Wrestling vs MMA

[Music] hey guys what's going on David Avalon you were Robert Drysdale for another dish n' at the breaking the guard podcast I was just talking with Robert about this past UFC with Demian Maia and Ben Askren and everybody on the Internet's going oh did you suit versus wrestling yeah this is on top again I really thought that was dead in like 2001 but apparently still yeah I think it's kind of insulting ooh Maya just to calm a judge it's a gaya also yeah I think and in my view he's a very well evolving yeah he's a very good wrestler like I mean he's taking out guys down a trail beautifully yeah and then finished him right afterwards they had a triangle is like a beautiful display of both breasts thing to do so he's taking down a lot of guys who are really good wrestlers do it so I don't think that's exactly a fair comparison of it the way I've always seen it was that Damian is at least as good in two fields wrestling jujitsu yes juju says obviously this was trauma - yeah but he's also a very good wrestler you know it's striking it needs work all right I mean you can only be good at so many things gonna come in a common answer I can I quit before you can jump to throw it back to you I suspect this is what happened I'm good friends with Damian like I'm gonna really sugar goes way back so if it sounds like a criticism it's you know it's only from a friend to a friend right but Damian's never had that kind of like knockout power he's just not one of those guys right I don't either for that matter or not like I just never had been like that super powerful kind of guy those guys can accelerate a lot in a very short space of time right luckily for us like grappling is more about isometric weight distribution so you don't have to be like a super powerful sprinter to make it a grappling I think at some point in Demian scan because if you look in his career they were trying to make him strike yes and earlier in his career there's a lot less wrestling and he was trying to strike and he was okay his technique was fine but he didn't have if you don't have that knockout power it's like one of those things we can only out point your opponent correct you know you can't really you know he's not one of those guys that's gonna be dropping people left right and center I think at some point either between him and his coaches anyway you know what why don't we just get really good at what we're already good at yeah you know and the key element they're missing was outstanding wrestling and I know for a fact that didn't put a lot of time in was wrestling so yes I call my BJJ guy you're absolutely correct it's a bit insulting and you know kind of just not real either she's not the truth of the case for sure you know I mean I see him and I see a guy with a like you say he's not an explosive athlete I mean I think is an athlete but he's not explosive and for a good striking you need to be able to have that quick pop you know to get tail powers not just being strong you could see all sorts of bodybuilders they can't hit anything yeah you know you need that loosen sex Olson this hook and I think he has decent technique you know he throws a good job he could tag people up he says harder to put some on a wave it's not in your wheelhouse but I saw like those earlier fights that he had he wasn't doing as well when he started focusing on striking too much because it wasn't like his thing and it was kind of like okay how they try to turn every wrestler into a kickboxer what do you think no no just what the wrestling doesn't learn enough where you can add your wrestling in because to me wrestling by itself is a complimentary art yeah it's not a finishing art but the rare exception of knockout slams which are few and far between you can't really finish somebody with wrestling you need either striking or your jujitsu have and the fight you know so with Mya having wrestling and then Jiu Jitsu he can finish people yeah right and he's showing he came very well the problem I see with Ben is that he neither has grappling or striking he has wrestling alone so he doesn't have a reliable way of finishing somebody now I'm he'd of course has some grappling skills yeah yeah you know but if his striking is pretty atrocious yeah it's not always known for yeah yeah like a clip of him doing make a spinning backfist nose like yeah holy Christ and you look at him in the midst it's a guy he's been incredibly successful too yes was so crazy that's how good is wrestling yes yes his wrestling is really good and his grappling game even the ground is heavily wrestling based great mind you're good control of pins and keeping people on their back now allowing them to go to the guard but it's really wrestling based not finishing based yeah it's very well I don't know how many TKO wins or submission wins he has oh yeah head of hearts I never really follow his career that closely because he was fighting in one and just what we want to get in one can sell this he went online and look for it like it wasn't yeah I know but I know if his wrestling credentials I know he's been very critical of BJJ in a lot of ways and I wonder if he's just say I never know where the character the person ends and the character begins right a lot of times you're saying stuff like that to get people like hyped up and talking about it and just to be and you know some people get a kick out of being you know being an [ __ ] yeah so or be in this route and that doesn't mean he's that way I personally don't believe for a second he believes what he's saying or a lot of these critics of BJJ are believing it because they're constantly training it yeah if you're training a triangle defense your training BJJ yeah if you didn't believe in BJJ this has helped dumb this conversation is if you didn't believe in BJJ you would let you your opponents put you in a triangle you will let them oh that's so dumb this competition exactly no you clearly you believe in it you just don't believe you're don't you believe that your defense is better than that guy's offense you might have that belief yeah that's perfectly in tune with believing in deficients of BJJ it's not contradictory it's just that these guys they think I got out of a triangle your BJJ doesn't work how many punches are thrown in a boxing fight how many of them knock I'm out how many are knockouts does that mean a left hook and right hand don't work but if someone gets out of a triangle see clearly because it doesn't work like the conversations so stupid always irritating me cuz I get so you're nice you're not putting a lot of thought behind your criticism right and all I see this has been I don't think this is his case but there has been some criticism as far as how BJJ is practice and taught and I agree with a lot of it actually I think that be judging in terms of methodology is behind wrestling in judo but you got a room and we got to put you know in perspective wide that is sports like judo and wrestling and boxing there Olympic sports yeah and they have been for over a hundred years right or whenever the Olympics start don't get that I'm not gonna I don't but you know let's say years right so that means there has been government funding consistent government funding into physiologists the best best minds behind Sport physiology under chronologiste you name it uh nutrition it money for testing how can we make this athlete but in the Cold War the kind of investment that went into getting the Soviets to defeat the Americans and vice versa right so this raises the bar as far as the methodology very very high now look at where BJJ grew up where was BJJ evolved right so to speak it was outside of the judo bubble did you know Bob judo is very good in Brazil they have a really good judo in Brazil but it's interesting that Brazilian jiu-jitsu in judo you would think there'd be a lot of cross training you would think from my experience there's none I never went to judo called in my life not some people have done that but there's less than you would think right so as a result BJJ is kind of like this let's ronin of a martial art it didn't have like other you know other than never had artificial funding it was always very organic growth and it lacked like the the know-how that are these other Olympic arts have right so as far as methodology goes I agree with Ben that BJJ people trained to just do I wouldn't say wrong I avoid the word wrong but it's more it could be done better I think wrestlers are definitely more they have better systems for training then resigned you to this yeah and just to like chime in there just in case you haven't heard Ben Haskins opinions it was more talking about the criticism of training that's so much the art itself yeah and fly right so you're saying that the way that local clubs are training their athletes it's very unsatisfactory in his opinion compared to like a wrestling program or a more traditional program so yeah I don't think those criticisms are off but clearly he's not training enough on the technical side of things yeah we get it doesn't I don't know like you see a lot especially with wrestlers not like they are so gifted in their particular art but they do very little or just like the bare minimum when it comes to learning like there's no sir yeah yeah yeah because you'll see like all the wrestlers you'll put in a good amount of work on striking Yeah right like not like wrestlers are pretty good kick boxers now you know you got guys like tyron woodley or whose bones their hands are better than their wrestling yes yeah and I I'm assuming it's just coming because they're already athletic yes if you're if you're very successful in wrestling chances are you're an explosive athlete and you're a really well conditioned so and you have strong hips which is a huge part of being a good striker having good hips right yeah so yeah they're gonna be able to strike well I mean Ben's probably the exception where he's not an explosive guy Jake Shields never got good at strike no and Jake the guys it's the exception to the exception role but a lot of the guys who are a good striking crossovers are explosive so yeah they can learn how to strike really well and I think a lot of them little just getting I think that you have seen particular from once that yeah they want people destroy yeah yeah oh the rules are lean down lean that way to pick up from boxy until the box the impact influenced MMA yeah a lot so for sure you know in the brown system and all the works do that favor and I think also it's just a reality it's harder to get takedowns in MMA now when people are able to essentially move around the cage better and it's hard to contain them and that people know how to use a cage which was once considered the asset to take people down now it could be a great defensive tool which could be a nightmare to take people down off if they know how to use it so it's like what's easier strike all right and then I use my wrestling in a defensive capacity not to get taken down and I could throw hands and a lot of people who I think have the attitude you're saying with it like she's used to doesn't work right and like it once you learn basic defenses is hard to finish people and it doesn't work as well so don't put a lot of time into learning how to submit people learn defensively which are they leopards that's showing you just was working because they have to work as usually affected enough yeah exactly it's like people say like uh pressure points don't work that's why we don't train the defense reserve but if they did work and we're like doing like little yeah maneuvers to perfectly open they were yeah I said like they're working the defense's so it doesn't work and that is jiu-jitsu in itself you know but I think the problem is they're saying the defense is much more effective in the office yes so they're like we're wasting time trying to learn all the same play with boxing yeah they like work or work wasting time working too much on the offense this just focus on defense and then which work something that we know works and their opinion better which is a striking I I think it's a very flawed approach I think if you're trying to become a complete athlete you work everything and people like Maya show that you just saw is highly effective in MMA to this day yeah to the point that other people fighting him have he's lost to what Guzman my points yeah uh you know Stu Collington by points he lost to ever Woodley Anderson Silva like finish people out point him yeah hey they have to do everything in their power just to out point them and that fight him like truly right so to me that's interesting right because they did win those fights but the current rules or whatnot but it's like I know like I don't know to means that the kind of bitched out of the fight in a sense that they didn't trying to finish the guy I think actually have all that guys Covington was the closest at the end he actually started letting some elbows yeah he engaged yeah at the end it was more of a desperation thing Maya had to try to finish him because he was clearly out two points and he was trying to pull half guard but he was already getting battered a bit from the feet he'll be do engage on the ground and actually did some good damage and I'm so like he's the one guy I could say alright actually he was trying to beat the breaks out of him at the end but everybody else was just kind of cheese in their way out to like a point win you know yeah not very in the spirit of trying to finish somebody yeah because he was so dangerous on the ground that they have to reset so much the respect prove my point yeah proves our case yes it does work and then it was silly to me like if those guys they're beating Maya because they're wrestling is appeared right yeah and that's the problem I essentially not he's like his asset is Jiu Jitsu wrestling is a complementary thing but it's not as strong as these guys and he has to play a game of catch-up and he's kind of already in the end of his career yes a little bit too late for him unfortunately you know I mean yeah and only have like Damien like it's not a very explosive guy like he's nowhere near as fast as I tried on Woodley yeah crazy-fast likely some of these guys are so powerful and explosive cuz it's a fundamental feature of wrestling you don't have a successful wrestling career unless you have like at least a some degree I'd be like above-average explosive there's no way out of it you get weeded out in high school you're not the selection process starts very very young yeah you're sorry buddy spelling bee for you athletic you know football restitch yeah we do this at a very young age I just Sofia said the same thing and called the pyramid you you cut out the you know you end up with the very very best at the very top and those guys have huge funding and to being the best athletes possible right and the American system is not so different whereas religion has none of that it's kind of like you know training enough when some tournaments you know you make it up there but like you get guys that because it's a static kind of strength and doesn't necessarily translate as well to in the main my opinion yeah but one thing one thing I always it just seemed in should I call wrestlers like to strike and they very rarely put time in a jujitsu and I always wonder like why is that because you're two so much closer to their world then striking is yeah I mean we have a wrestler the way it's a way like if you're d1 wrestler you're a black belt at everything except submissions and find off your back if once you add you learn a little bit off your back you know that fundamental thing everyone should know just at least to get back up right and you learn some guillotine some rear naked choke some armbar some team orders or whatever now you're like a step away from being a black but every because you're ready your take tells very superior on average yeah right - most BJJ black belt um your basis phenomenal you know understand top control like you have all these tools they're over there he's just Teddy was like I don't I really want to learn this whole new skill set versus pushing this much time into something is very very close to my world and I wish that they weren't like that and I wonder why that is I think that one reason is maybe they're bored of grappling they've been wrapping their whole life and BJ's be too just so close they were excited about knocking people out because they never got to do that maybe the knockout is exciting maybe because there's a cultural clash there where you get all these in Brazilian structures and these Iowa wrestlers gonna go I'm not gonna learn from that Brazilian they're kind of like oh it's not America right like it's Brazilian or something I made some resistance they're people that are like overly nationalistic you know you could say I saw some of that Xtreme Couture nice trainer there was a little bit of resistance there like there they would learn but like it was it was like there was a little this is not Americans fight this way right kind of thing and it's not it's not a majority but there's some people feel that way right the National is the thing but like then I think that I don't know if it's boredom or they just don't like to grapple as much they stop wrestling - it's very common I've seen this a lot of stream controllers able to witness a lot of d1 wrestlers who just like the wrestling went like downhill and then wouldn't realize I don't know it because like skims like any it's like it's like a language you know you'll forget your mother tongue like people know this you've got 20 years without speaking English you'll forget it yeah yeah you know so imagine wrestling or digits or anything else like so these guys stop wrestling and their skill set goes down and I'm always like pause like why would you lose that that's such an important tool you know I believe that wrestling is as far as the foundation goes it is the best foundation friend to me because it's gonna be easier for these guys these d1 wrestlers to transition to a Minmei than it is for other striking arts to transition because it's like the middle ground yeah I know Joe Rogan has said this a million times but it does determine where the fight takes place if you have that wrestling you get to choose where you want to fight for the most part right not you know and but I get to me this is always it's always been an enigma why so many wrestlers are so resistant did you just you know I started as a wrestler yeah pretty much I mean I had one year chicken dough but I didn't really compete in that I didn't actually spar when I did chicken dosa yeah I don't really consider that my base I consider wrestling yeah more of my base and I remember my first introduction to jiu-jitsu in person was my brother because he was a year older than me he finished high school wrestling first and right away found a place I was doing bother to though in which everything goes you know like back in 98 so he had after a few months he's like Dave I got to show you this stuff it's really really awesome and I had their typical restful attitude like oh I'm a wrestler how to kick your ass we're old he rear-naked choke me and arm brought me a bunch of time all right oh like as soon as I finish the season I've learned this I can't be destroyed by my brother you know and uh once I started training I didn't like say oh I'm not gonna learn how to you know did you just who I am braced it you know I try to learn as much a physic but and initially I was very top-heavy I think that's natural because I'm playing to my assets I was named Americana's a lot of ankle locks and heel hooks net cranks but over time I learned everything I can you know I don't get for the same reason why if you're a wrestler you wouldn't learn all these things I think when I get people who are wrestlers and I'm training them I'm teaching them all the top techniques were yeah all right I'm on the bottom learn enough to stand up and minimum minimum then in my opinion is should learn how to fight off their back yeah and but in the beginning I'm thinking of comfort right leg they're not gonna want to be in their back mostly right so they okay let's play through your assets right play top positions learner control know how to get off your back safely without getting choked and then start forcing them to learn all the aspects of the right all right how do you know play a half guard a dizzy guard owes guard you know like you have you have to learn all these things and I think as a job of every professional athlete to be exposed to every facet of the game that's right to me when I see someone who's been training 20 years and I got John Jones this guy's bluebell it's like what yeah amateurs they're not even fighting that their black belts in in like you know five ten years and you know that you're a professional you don't put the time into learning everything about the sport it's like being a football player not knowing all the rules it's like how are you playing football for a living and you don't know every yeah it's awesome it's great that's what a good coach comes in by the way a good head coach does that exactly that I think another reason I just like thought of this is like it is so and it's like blasphemy they've asked me for a wrestler to be on his back so the fighting off your back to them it's just like no I'm not want to unlearn any of that to me because it's so um it's against the Tom's like an ideologist always like you have to be on top versus like looking at things from a different perspective and going I'm gonna end up on bottom or this may be a tool I may have to use one day which happens to everyone at some point their careers gonna be on their back sure and it's crazy how they don't know how to stand back up I was just commenting for pfl website and a lot of Russians a lot of Dagestan II very very successful very well rounded everywhere except one place you put them on their backs and they're like a turtle they're you know belly-up and this guy like they can't they don't know how to move like no shrimp you know it's everything is bridging giving the back when they get on the fence every single one of them gets the back gives the back away and I'm like man like what you don't you think that would spend because I think they have that wrestling humble background like there's no way I'm gonna be underneath you right so they never spend enough time training that right and I just don't I mean I would be terrified of going into a fight and not knowing how to put my hands up well I McGrath was gonna shoot even if I could take 99.9 percent of people down with my first shot I would still want to know how to put my hands up you know but now I'm not gonna learn to that particular you know this is what discipline is and we talked about this before discipline is not doing what you like discipline is doing what you hate right like if you like to play video games all day you play eight hours a day does not make you a disciplined video game player right I mean I play an eight hours a day that's not discipline discipline is running spread 6 a.m. yeah you don't say that's uphill like that's and I mean maybe some people like that I yeah just do what needs to be done yeah and if that includes learning a skill set that you don't like this once again this is where a good a head coach comes in a good coach is gonna tell you this is what you're doing there's a huge problem in to me more than BJJ if you like where this fighter is running the camp it's the weirdest dynamic yeah it's kind of because I have the money so it's how it's what happens is that they run the camp another coach yeah it's like no I think we talked about before it's like the pyramid is upside down yeah and my mind the way the power structure in MMA should be should be coaches athletes promotions yes right coaches at the top why they're generally the guys were the most experienced they fought if coach they've been all around so they understand how the game works and they're teaching the game and who the next generation which is the fighters fighters you know it should be vied by the promotion's I like promotion should be fighting to get these come athletes is like we need them to make a show successful but the reality is promotions are at the top fighters in the middle and then coaches in the bottom right because because the money is at the top so true you know guys like you know Dana White has made the UFC's amongst the boss man you know and essentially the fighters have to pour themselves out to get a spot on the show you know like and even like that show wants to be if I always get the name wrong you know why the fight night whatever the thing is but I can keep up yeah you got a TV show for them yeah yeah it's like you want a fighter I forget it but you pretty much have to go balls out trying to win a fight to impress them now you can't just win the fight it's not enough it's like you have to go are they well when did this become like a show the Panettiere it should be about like winning my fight to the best of my ability because you had a right over the year see in his the thing the difference between something that is run to be a show versus a sport yeah cuz it means on the pro business side yes so now we have a new belt you hear about that one we called it the Joker I thought it was a mean no there's a joke there dead serious about it you know they showed the belt and they apparently the rock is gonna be the one giving the belt out yeah and like it is just shows like hey be safe or well balloon is like it's me strange man because you have all this credibility all these you know they everything build something up but it's kind of like let's just throw that credibility out the window because we're gonna make more money if we lose this credibility I would rather have the credibility but I think at some point the priorities get you know an around is like you know what justice maximize profits and business is very social Pathak like that anyone who's running a bit ran a business knows this like you you maximize profit if you run on a corporation you're looking at shareholders that's the only thing you care about you're not looking at lake you don't look at environment you don't look at like you know workers right you don't look at I'll give this guy has eight kids at home and if you can feed them or not you know there's no other value it's just about money what is the only thing that they from a business perspective that makes perfect sense but as a martial artist as a fan of the sport like I'm I lean towards being idealistic in the sense work the the credentials of them that are the credibility that UFC has gained as having the toughest fighters in the world the best fighters in history are in UFC everything about that yeah well you put them with the best fighter in you know ancient times and they get killed yeah you put Bruce Lee in an amen' Tefilin off an amateur event and Bruce Lee will get mopped yeah I'm sorry fans but it's true yes I'm a blue belt what's smoked Bruce Lee in a fight that's not Bruce Lee's fault yeah it's just that you know the thing is that the sport has evolved so much so it's we have all these amazing fighters and these all this these amazing skills and you know we kind of lean towards turning the whole thing in a circus because we make more money that way right yeah to me to losing some of the shine you know it's like we're sure it does right and the whole point of having the rankings and having fights being sanction is to create credibility and also to give people accountability of knowing where they're at and what their places and the top of the sport because you have a champion and then who's coming up to be the next contender yeah but when you can have like pretty much Brock Lesnar can fight for the title whenever you wants Brock Lesnar says I want to come back and fight for the heavyweight title there's no common good to instantly my talk is way of fighting for the title right now and that is again the Meritus or because now it's like whoa the guy who just fought to get that number one contender spot worthless all right it will Floyd Mayweather you think you can buy for etat UFC title balls you want to do in a heartbeat and the heartbeat would be one tweak and see when you say oh it makes sense business-wise I have a I disagree a bit right because I think sure of you did return maybe I'm a short turns out there because short term that works right and what happens is most people if you're a CEO what not your term is generally not that long all right like what you're gonna be a CEO for five years like that you don't have to think outside of that no I just kind of think how am I gonna look good and make this company very profitable within my time span yes yeah I destroyed the environment I I do you know these crappy deals which are gonna fall apart in 10 years that's okay I'm gone in five yeah so I think it's short-term victories that they're getting by ruining the credibility of what now long term is gonna hurt yeah if you destroy the environment you have nowhere to live you're dead now but we're human we don't think we don't fit 20 years ago you know it's not my problem yeah it takes exactly that's what's that business is social Pathak like that because everything is not my problem I'm making more money well you're right about the short-term thing like I because I believe this if we are opinion makers right wait me because as an instructor as an instructor as someone who has some influence some influence in a martial arts world right we form opinions we'll also hardcore fans when did you start watching Jesse 893 okay I start at 97 right so I'm a late uh I'm a late coming when it comes to UFC fans right because like you're right so some people start at 9334 and they've been following the sport this whole time you know our opinion is valuable but you know the average fan which is the vast majority of you know ufc's money let's short right yeah they will switch over to NASCAR just like that for them it's a flip of a button I go you know what I had it with this UFC things Gordon and watch NASCAR and football and baseball or whatever right we're not going anywhere yeah we're the hardcore fans I know 20 years from now we're still gonna be not only buying UFC and watching it granted I don't watch it very much these days but we we form opinions because people come to us like my wife does like what do you think of that fight and whatever I say becomes whether it's true or not or valid or not like they're gonna believe me yes I have credibility with them right uh and I think that they lose the hardcore fanbase and the EOC has done that a lot oh I know Fisher law uh I'm kinda like kinda like come on guys like they keep getting title fights that these guys that don't deserve it I'm like you know a man like this apartment it doesn't even want to watch it because I feel they were losing their fan base I was just talking to someone yesterday it was it as long as I have and he's like I don't watch you eat anymore many shenanigans yeah yeah he just looks at him clips watch highlights yeah but that's it I think it's the gram Runa for the UFC tube cuz he put like a one-minute amazing highlight and that's that's all I want to see I sports in general I don't I never I've never seen a football game in my life true story I have never watched a football game to be from beginning to end cuz it's just my watch the highlights yeah but four hours on my Sunday there's no way you can take four hours out of my Sunday sit down watching him I respect people do I'm just no but I like the highlights I think the Instagram kind of ruled it really easy yeah I'll tell you I haven't watched any other sport since I was last time I remember watching football was with Dan Marino I mean I've heard a name yeah so Dan Marino's a quarterback on the Miami Dolphins when I look in the 90s yeah uh yeah I remember because my dad would watch it so like it was a family thing the only thing we all watched but then everywhere Marino retired it's like no reason to watch football anymore and I never watched any other sports Hanson yeah Emmett and when there once I started watching the UFC like even like boys Gracie first entered I saw that I never once any other sport like I don't I don't get it personally like you spend like all the time it's amazing but like I don't know like I like MMA a lot of em wrestling and grappling because I do it yes I'm a participant in it so I can appreciate it more and I'm a very deep level yeah because you understand everything sometimes fighters get injured and like you know we know he's really hurt and Sons I've seen this how this happened like last night like this Brazilian guy got kicked and that's three times in one fight she's now every the third time it was like it barely touched right yeah and in the crowd is booing like he's faking it like you just got in the five-minute span he got kicked twice his nuts are so sensitive now I mean if you can just touch him it hurt so yes he's in pain you know my we understand this because we know paint accumulates and some right but a fan has never been hit ed before his life does understand these things so you can understand fighting from a much deeper perspective than the average fan that's what the average fan misses out on yeah you know that's like for me I know I I can't really relate to other sports okay watch it it's just I mean it's boring you know I have this is awful thank you I don't know I don't think he is what's it's exciting in anybody that's opinionated of course but there's so much going on in a fight whereas like if you look at a game of football which is pretty dynamic yeah there's a lot of laws in the action you know like everybody's gotta get said then you have like 45 seconds between each play know that it drives me nuts Mesa breaks the Aleta's rugby in soccer like I feel like I can watch a whole game non-stop the football would stop stats commercials 20 seconds of play and 30-second break stats commercial yeah it's like I feel if four out of four hours of game you're actually really watching one hour they're three I like stats commercials and you know listen people talk so I don't know I mean like I don't get it I was exactly I remember the last professional game I've ever seen in my life was in 2006 I don't forget as in Brazil I was watching the World Cup Brazil is losing France two to nothing people in Brazil committed suicide over this man like it's a big deal and they're fanatics right and and I'm looking I'm disappointed too like come on you know like I watched I look at the expression everyone around me and they're all like like almost cry and everyone's like panic and then I remember the moment I remember the player to battle cons he's a very good player at a time and he's jogging in the field he's kind of like smiling like if I [ __ ] and that way this guy doesn't care he's a millionaire he doesn't care and that's when I realized if the player doesn't care about the game why should I and that that was the moment when I was like I kind of fell out of love with professional sports and I never haven't seen a game sense and the UFC in some ways is kind of leaning toward the money corrupts everything I feel like the more the sport has grown it's been better because now you can make a living for a man that's been great but at the same time I think it's corrupted a lot like that the me it was like two warriors yes like I like him I am bring in sync with the Japanese in this regard I've always liked pride more than UFC right because it was an element of respect there in the crowd that have never seen in the UFC yeah you know when we got involved at least when I did there was no money in this at all and uh but we did it because just had something to prove yeah it was an honor thing right and say all right let's just go out there and see who's the toughest guy that's what the original ufc's were all about and that's it like that's a spare that I got into it so it is great I love that there's now money in the sport and people can make a living but it does SAP a little bit of the passion that some people had behind it yeah and understandably because they don't need to you're not hungry right yeah you know so I think it does take away from that a bit obviously there's still guys out there there are savages and you know just think guys a cowboy he fights like the days notice you know I got just he's out there just I I really respect people do that because I mean I mean for you to just I can't I mean I have to be a ridiculous amount of money like and I still linked or I guess like I I really admire people that can take a fight like that yeah two three days notice to me that's crazy yeah that's a game right yeah I like to fight yeah exactly but again like sometimes you I've got bidding fights in the streets and I didn't get paid and that was like a minute not even a minute notice you know it's crazy how that is right I would be really willing to like you know kill myself on concrete with a stranger you know if he came down to it over not being paid at all skiing like risking like going to prison yeah ruining your life you know going to you know all these terrible things but like two days notice in a professional fight and a safe and somewhat safe environment were you getting paid all that like I don't want to do that it's funny how that works is this a psychology be fine I think it's a lot of people don't realize how that's what makes fighting so tough right cuz Streif right there isn't any preparation all right you just somebody rates thing it's a failure of reason someone yeah someone bumped into you the wrong way or you know I mean those are ego battles but sometimes the guy is just trying to mug you and he's gonna kill you if you don't give the money and you have to defend yourself right but there's no planning there's no forethought it just happens but when you say it's very different when you have that even in school everybody's had that happen to them in school right someone bully pick them you and you follow them right there right versus the the time oh me and you are gonna fighting the playground at 5:00 p.m. tomorrow in front of all your buddies yeah that's a very different situation very different situation very different situations I missed a moment yes I completely agree so that's what fighting is but just in a much higher scale and the stakes are higher and yeah so I think that's what makes it so difficult because you have all the time when you're thinking oh my god this is gonna happen work this could happen this could happen this guy you think of all the low possibilities you know like oh what can go wrong what if and what ifs and that just blows your brain away yeah it's incredibly difficult when you think about I really struggled with that like knowing like fighting with a set time I'm gonna find the 23rd at 7 p.m. it's like holy cow fuzz then where's like guys like if it's spontaneous it's so much easier but that's why everyone's tough when it comes to spontaneous you know it's a very difficult thing mentally I struggle with that it was very hard for me like I forced myself to do and I'm very proud of that because it was so difficult I know I remember well how hard it was for me to create the courage to step into a cage like I remember I get the feeling vividly like how difficult it was right um I'm proud of the fact that I overcame that but kind of overcoming you know I wish I think I can do it to some degree with Mike motion messy do they want to know you just move it out of the way you know like it's like it's an object you know like anxiety just you can like put in a drawer and keep away and it's a very difficult thing to deal with it's not for everyone yeah yeah it just depends I guess on how you frame look like for me it got easy towards the end I just enjoyed the opportunity I I guess because I didn't get to compete as much towards the end stages of my career so I looked forward to the opportunity it's like God now is my time to shine yeah so I always tell my fighters on you know like this is the moment you've worked for nobodies sometimes you could forget that you choose to step in the km and the fact that it is a cage it kind of feels like you're being forced and there's a little procession and you're being funneled in there like if you don't have it reflected like damn I get oh yeah like that will you chose that walk yes you've been dreaming about that's about the thing is people dream often dream of the reward not the process yeah you know and the trick to anything to being good at anything in life is enjoying the process itself a journey right not the end so when you look at jiu-jitsu as a means to an end you're often doing it for the wrong reasons or fighting in general you once you fall in love with the journey at the end is like it's a consequence like you even think about it you're just like it's like oh we're I'm gonna be a UFC fight champion in five years my head's a horrible way of thinking about it yeah I want to be the best guy in the gym right now tomorrow what I have to do and then it's a more realistic hands-on approach and I think I love to miss out on that they they want to skip that day what they really want is the reward the recognition the money win hey which is nice of course but you know the most successful people I've ever met in my life they were really really focused on living in the moment you know and just like being better right now not thinking too far ahead my brother had this great analogy and he would tell people before they're gonna compete because look him imagine that I have a crystal ball and I'm able to look into it and I go Robert I see your match tomorrow you're gonna lose are you still gonna fight to the point right to me yeah I want to see yeah yes it like that a very good way of looking at it I ever thought it kind of removes a you might lose it that's okay yeah you still want to do it because like for me when he when he posed the question to me and like yeah I hesitate like I'm like I want to fight still I want to know why I lost how come like I'm and I changed my fate yeah we should challenge your fate you know maybe I'm gonna challenge it right you know but like the point is if I did lose I wouldn't be like oh oh well I'm gonna learn from that experience yeah but like I feel like if I put that question on somebody and they say no I'm not gonna fight yeah maybe funnies not for you because it's a 50/50 probability you're gonna lose at some point Yeah right and over time those on to your higher you know so if you can't even a said the possibility of losing or that you know I don't know I feel like you're gonna get crushed and there's people who lose and they are they I mean Ronda Rousey was never the same after one loss just yeah went kind of wrong as she's just hated to show business you can see it her interviews she was like Roman she like get me out of here I she could see she's like she did not like the attention even though she it was a weird with her I think she craved it but at the same time she had like a love-hate relationship you w e now she's in the game you know I don't know we just say no how kind of money I guess yeah like she got irritated with reporters and fans like all the time I've seen like I remember interviews of her she's like being a total [ __ ] like give me out of here I should did not want to be there probably overwork to I think the UFC kind of spread her a little too thin because she was like the big draw at one point yeah yeah she was the only time the history of maybe combat where a woman was the biggest draw for sales and sport I don't know she still is the biggest email celebrity that the MMA world has produced by far wasn't come close yeah but I think that as she was a but where it went when she was the biggest name of the UFC at the time I think she was selling more than anywhere everyone else was she I'm not sure what her numbers were but like at least from a brand recognition she was famous outside the sport right there's few P they have done that connor is one of them right and you have Ronda Rousey's one then they could just go to the random guy and will random person Rousey yeah I don't know I would bet nine out of ten they would know see anything with Connor but they gotta give me am I am no they wouldn't know no I don't believe they wouldn't know it's crazy yeah but there's some people like the Diaz brothers maybe I think yeah I think a lot because maybe fifty percent of people yeah you know so like those few people who transcend outside in our sport although that seems to be growing now now you have I mean it's crazy with mass feed all right he's been fighting since 2003 nobody knew who he was like a year ago it's true and her I had no I just heard of him the first time everybody recently to me it was so weird because I mean George started off with me back it was the first MMA gym it was with me and my brother for like five years or so and yes the same personality as he does now but like for whatever reason he couldn't find a voice and like once he moved that he went to ATT and he's still with a big camp you know like maybe all we weren't big enough but he still didn't get a voice there nobody cared about but then all of a sudden one big win with Darren till the little back seen scuffle and he's a superstar yeah like it's weird how that happens I don't fully understand like I don't get it either because like it wasn't like oh he he changed his personality he's the same kid and he's just as good like I'm yeah he's not like overnight he became like spectacular fighter he I mean he did have his two of the best wins he's ever had as far as the fashion I mean he's knocked out other people that he knocked I Yves Edwards with a head kick which was crazy you know he's there were some amazing kickboxing himself and he's got some other big wins but I guess it's just the timing of things you know it's weird how that works I like you know like because I always thought man this kid's gonna be a star and then you know like 10 years later I'm like man he still hasn't I'm he's fighting the UFC he making some money but he's still not a star yet like damn he just doesn't I don't know what's missing you know what the factor and then that there until thing brought him up and then Ben Askren just pushed him over the moon yeah to the point where he's fighting for a made-up title there's nobody else like a claim is there a way class in that title how does that work I don't understand I don't know but like it's kind of an honorable thing for him him and Nate Diaz they're fighting for an imaginary title that's never happened in the history of any sport I think where they just meet up a rad [ __ ] like did that happen in boxing or light up a new divisional title like no like I have no idea how they're gonna run that how do you earn a title fight for that title and in what weight do they have to be specific I don't know how that's gonna work I have no idea why they spent like 50 grand on making the belt supposedly it seems oh that's a drop like they know why it seems what the hell they're putting in this thing titles are worth that much yeah I can't be jealous and I was a champion I can get someone exchanged a law for something it's not more just we should know but like I balanced the champ I'm like what the hell like I want that dog you know I mean yeah how's that gonna work long term I don't know it's really sure they thought it I hope they thought it really use him but I think that I guess the point I was driving home is that he became they go it's overnight sensation yeah to the point where they made a belt or a division that he could potentially win solely hats off to him that he stuck in for long it's a long time to be in the fight game like 16 years well he deserves it chill sawn into like he was he was always good but he was like one of the first to start a trash talk and I think he might be the first name it made really push it and he he blew up after the trash talking but he found his voice yeah you know and I think sometimes like there's that he had the personality it was there he didn't think he could use it or someone maybe like a man like maybe a manager steered in that direction or maybe one day you just go you know what I'm just gonna be me I'm gonna say it's true it you know but it changed his career dramatically oh yeah right and and that happens I think some people just need to yeah find that little little key little component that's missing because I think a lot of Mouser Devils out there for people that are very skilled very deserve so much more I would go back to like 80 to see 110 can you actually complain after he won I just saw that it was like what else do I have to do when it's true what else does a guy have to do when you think about it like he's probably out of all the champions the most accomplished one and in a lot of ways because he's done again nogi and then I made very successfully yeah who else has done that I can't think of anyone else that no I mean very successfully uh yeah but like I think thing is just right there yeah yeah yeah even like thank you be Jiu Jitsu career was more successful than Damien's even old Damien has made it further MMA but it's you know not a lot of guy it's a hard thing to do for sure but for some reason me because it's like doesn't speak English fluently or maybe because the lightweight you know or because it's hard like boom oficina and beat the NIV dad right he's at 10:11 world I can keep up she's the most successful competitor in history when you think about it all right he doesn't get even near the recognition Italy under low and Boucher get for example yeah or you know Keenan or someone you know they just and it's crazy because I gets nothing to do with his technique is this half that's a cup there's no voice yeah it's unfortunate that but it's a reality right that we don't reward people based on their merits nearly as much compared to their ability to market themselves right and just there a general social press today I mean because you're right I'm sure we went to Brazil we would find some badass guy that nobody's ever heard of and he's just practicing diligently and nobody knows who he is you know and you can do that and pretty much any sport in the US there's always some guy and the basketball court playing pickup games that could destroy people it's just Billy has seen him yet you know or he doesn't have the opportunity to be seen that's the one thing that I think that's great about social media it's giving people this opportunity right like before how are you gonna get picked up by a major Network you need to be friends with the right people you need to be friends with the right people you need to be seen you need to get online you see people back in the day when they were filming the news screen time nowadays you don't need that like I don't even have like people news anymore I do anything online yeah yeah so now let's just get your Instagram channel all right I start filming and hope that it's made its made information very democratic and it raises all these questions about democracy too because if the expression from freedom and democracy is everything everything else that came with that freedom it's like that speaks volumes of human nature right like is that really who we are because I feel the Internet is mostly used in negative ways it's got a potential you know social me has a potential to be I find my high school friends yeah that's great what you're describing yeah that's great too but again you get you some of the worst of what people have to offer too it's it's almost like I think anything a lot of ways social media enter the Internet in general has been it's a window into human nature you know like what is the most-searched thing on Google we're gonna find these things out like what's the most searched man and woman or the most right yeah you can look you can look and find these things out and that right there like okay that's what people are right and to me that's a scary scary thought I'm like that so we really who we are right you see what surprised me but that one I think surprised yeah but the ratings for like the Kardashian shows like no you gotta be kidding I'm not that many people watch the show no that's impossible no no that's that's the case you know it's funny because there was I think there was a meme that was showing different businesses on how long it took them to get a million customers right it was like 18 T X amount of years there's a but there was a horn hub 18 minutes oh no it's the number one thing another 22 like and I don't know like I've heard from like internet marketers and people they're really like tech savvy that porn has been leading the trend on the internet for decades like since the whole thing started everything porn does like people fall there's sales format like everything and you're gonna find out who on the internet you go to a pornhub and you know what they're doing is what all the other platforms we're not just like everything else following the next few years because they're they got the biggest audience well they don't have the audience yeah they're they have the most traffic and you're talking about they're also dealing with video data which is very heavy yeah you know as far as like they know their business a bandwidth that they're gonna need and then you also have security issues they can't you leaking out stuff like that you know they're a legitimate site so it's pretty wild you know it's funny but it's kind of you said it's not surprising right because the ultimate goal of everything is sex pretty much the other day so of course we're not sure if he's gonna be able but one thing but it's funny because if you ask the average person they're gonna say yeah but it is it's it is a peek into that innit it's coming back over seeing like he was I think they're that Neil deGrasse Tyson he had a TV show about the cosmos and it went two seasons I think yeah in that crazy but not crazy though let me think about it if you have a great mind with a great topic something super interesting he's an entertaining guy well he's a pretty witty guy's funny you know I you know I don't like I should have watched both seasons I did it I don't have the time but I I would wash it right over the Jersey Shore you know but like you look at the ratings and I guarantee you they're not even closed you know so that's the scary part to me about about like you know cuz it's I think it's a reality check for like amen that's really what what is out there you know that's how people are well you know then I include my I'm not trying to say yeah yeah but we're all part of that one way or another and you know it's it's it's who we are and it kind of exposes you to other bubbles if you will right what happens is like if you are in a certain camp like we're like health athletes you know sports we're in this particular bubble and we want to normally see outside of it right like if we didn't have TV or Internet we would have no world outside of that it's kind of like almost living on an island and a native tribe but internet essentially exposes you to other cultures and worlds that you would never ever interact with true and they seem so foreign you're like what the hell is it people do that like I see stuff I'm like why are they doing this you know like the thing that blows my mind away like is these people who they do that they smashing dancers I know you seen it like that you'll see like this big black girl jump on top of a dude and I could pile driving they do this crazy stuff I'm like that looks painful everything sewage Abunda brazilian dance they had so I imagine a guy sitting down like like this on the floor right and then just girls a big fat ass like we'll put her like shins and ankles on his shoulders and her hands on the ground like in a push-up position and then she pushes her ass back and forth in your face she was a face with her ass and the guys are just like lining up for this I think it's a big line of dudes just like ready to get like beat up yeah something like that hilarious you know but like it's definitely entertained like this we've never been more entertained you know like it's not I mean like oh I like that the circus and bread and how the Romans added him like Romans they knew nothing about entertainment we make them look like little white belts yeah we've been doing some really crazy stuff yes as card kind of how mixed martial arts came to be in a sense we had what these different worlds like karate Taekwondo and jujitsu all meeting and something amazing came out of it and I mean like now we have Emma Mayen it's a I think it's an amazing display of collaboration between all these different styles of running out how they fit together yeah you know and you just I just thought of this but I think that in a lot of ways is an expression of something that is much bigger than MA it's it's an expression of globalization you know because what you end up with what is in an may if not the amalgamation of all these little bubbles yeah well these little bubbles came together and they created locate this is the best form of fighting ever created rise call MMA I imagine how that happens in other cultural aspects not just fighting yeah happens with technology happens I think that the tendency is for us as like in the world become more and more alike because of this because we are turning into a village yeah it is a village anyway just a village with a lot of people but I think that if we if we're around 200 years from now I think that everyone's gonna speak in like one main language it may be English Mandarin or something else but I think ever the whole world will speak one link will be unified eventually because that's what happens once you know you turn it into a village if people have to agree in the language speak and it's happened in a lot of ways already my Brazilian friends never learn how to speak English they all their profile on their Instagram is in English not in Portuguese how interesting is that yeah English has become the language of globalization and I think that will happen with other like fashion name of fashion it's like traveling like when Marco Polo did it would have been far more interesting imagine being Marco Polo making it China yeah that's that's a cultural shock right there that's like going a different planet was when I travel now everyone speaks English everyone dresses the exact same way have the same cars the same customs the food is you know a lot of times is the same even you know it's the shopping malls are exactly the same this stuff I buy is more and more similar how the main brands like Nike and Reebok are in every store so the world is becoming more and more alike and even though it's you know does the concert a consequence of this globalization but at the same time it's like becoming less interesting like yeah I was I say I am against globalization I think there's of course we want integration with everybody and we want to be able to have open routes of information exchange but I feel you lose some of the diversity if everybody is exactly the same yeah and because then that means we're also all thinking the exact same way yeah which will make it much harder to get unique viewpoints yeah and new ideas that are outside of the box yeah so I that's why when people say oh we should I guess that's what people you know who follow the one world order type thing they're scared of that to me that's one of the fears about that it's just she's just gonna have everybody thinking exactly the same oh it's happening yeah I'm a spirited theory yeah yeah it's it's it's it's a tendency of any village right it's for it to have one leader yeah that's always been I think in 200 years from now around they're gonna be one corporation on the planet we're not gonna have Apple Google and Facebook eventually there's gonna be one major corporation that would be like yeah the most successful form of imperialism ever devised because how do you exactly how do you something out here you know everybody's talking about it Google sent me an email this morning they bought it before you bought it yeah that's what's gonna happen like you have one operation 2.3 billion dollars like that so now Google also knows about my heart rate where I'm at it's it's great and they imagine like we're what Julius Caesar would have if you could explain the power of Google or Amazon you know or Apple any of these companies to Julius Caesar you would have been like he was like what kind of power I get so beyond anything any emperor has ever accomplished in our history it is so far beyond right and we don't see it that way because we don't see him from historical perspective when you really put it like that that's what we're talking about we're sure I think government power like there's this whole wave and politics about good government out of your life and get governor out of your life knowing what's government their life I want to pay my taxes and you got really be careful with this because it's really what you're saying is when you create that power vacuum it's really what you're doing you're removing whatever is left of democracy and the Republic and you leave this power right now who's gonna fill that gap the void well the private sector right big corporations so you end up with the world where you know the private sector which you are not accountable to your opinion unless you're a shareholder so unless you're a shareholder European means nothing to them no consumer yes but like yeah their decisions of who like what the rules of labor are in Vietnam and China don't really doesn't really matter to them right as long as you're buying your products but you end up with this very distorted you know thing the world where like the power is so concentrated that I don't think I don't scary man when you think about it because we empires of the past pale in comparison to what we're witnessing a moment as far as control power and overall wealth I think it's just once again an example of a distorted concentration of power like I was talking with the mmm pyramid or at least a pyramid of society now is people at the bottom and then it's like corporations are probably on top of government yeah they're lying did I bought the government's right you know it's a kind of a blurred line because government can do something that could [ __ ] yeah but by the token then those people are not getting that the power they want and the lobbying it was weird by anyways I don't think our forefathers we're seeing it that way I was seeing people would be at the top of this power structure you know me and they gave power to government corporations became a person yeah I'm going once you do that they're to have the same rights as you as like you okay so I can outdo you then is now there were the same if I have more money than you're then technically outrank you and I think that I think that's kind of an open Pandora's Box when they did that it's like now corporations are people right have the right spot the obligations yeah so how do you lose that game all the rights not the obligations all right no it's pretty well yeah those shell companies at when they're like I don't know I think we talked about it a while back how yo Romero he had won a settlement I don't know even know but he got caught with a drug test that he you know he popped for whatever reason he said it wasn't him yeah and then they checked the supplements turns out it was one of the supplements was tainted yeah and he sued and won like a settlement like seventeen million dollars when that and I was like dude that's crazy you know but I well I I did some research after I don't point out to me that he didn't actually get the money it was just he he won the award it was never paid because the company it was a shell company and essentially it was there just to take the blame so people are saying those is actually he did cheat is just that he was I guess of handlers were very creative I'm making sure that he was protected if he did get caught you know so also like the people that created the company were on his side yeah Wow I think my message that sometime I think I'm smart and I'm like I see it I hear this stuff I panic yeah never yeah but I believe at that level that can imagine the machinations that go on when it comes to hiding your money and analyst at the corpus highest level right all these financial tricks to you know really which I understand everyone wants to keep their money no one like to pay taxes and everything but you know that's if the Republic is not there to defend the rights of people and do what's best for the people as a whole not for individual you know at some point I think as a society we fail yeah if you come too much about what is best for you know I think some of these guys are peel about 15 20 percent taxes a year you know it's like to get away with that all these like little tricks you know that me and you I mean I can I don't have the power dude I don't have the knowledge to be able to do that my accountant is not that skilled but at the highest level they they get away with it man kind of crazy when you think about it cuz it's not very fair system no like when you have like I forget how big the tax code is but it's a ridiculous document you know I mean you know I think they have that meme where it says like it's a conversation between says in the government he goes okay so you want me to pay taxes cuz how much would you have to figure it out why was it I don't figure it out you go to jail but anyway yeah we all over the place today man yeah we went we went me a day we started the show today and we're gonna go I talk about like all this like well the Demian Maia been ask her and we'll go from there we end up talking about the tax brackets yeah let's loop back to him real quick yeah so he sign off so with Ben I wanted Ben to win oh yeah oh and that particular manager but kinda but I wanted Ben to be successful in the UFC in general because I thought it would be great because it would give power to one Fc and it would then set up a paradigm like well maybe the best athletes aren't all in the UFC yeah and they're not the only game in town yeah so it was my hope that Ben would go do well in the UFC but it turns out been mired yeah he had a controversial with him a robbie lawler you know which i thought he was gonna win but I mean it is steeped in controversy then he gets that knockout with nozzles oh that's real all and which launches his career and then he gets run into Maya and gets beat you know and these are not guys who suck but it kind of does show they're arguing it well when FC doesn't really have that level of talent compared to U of C yeah yeah I goes to U of C as his undefeated guy from Bellator and one FC and can't even you know rate what the thing is I think that when yeah every athlete I don't know Ben is how old he is how long he's been fighting but like you know we think that okay you get to a skill level and like it's to see how you are for the rest of your life and it's not likely to all these factors like motivation and like injuries and age and like where your heart is they're all your career and like people ask me all the time Rob why don't you fight yeah so and so was your age and he's still fighting or someone so is older than you were still fighting like I don't want to yeah this is a simple answer I don't want to you know well you should I say only no I don't I don't have to why don't you yeah why did you go find me why don't you go find anything exactly you know it's not and I think these things change over time there's like five years ago what I'm saying I was blasphemy you know your quitter like no I just my heart change like I I'm very interested in other things now to me like I other things that I do today are more interesting to MMA and I'm happy about that because I don't at least I heard this like once like it goes like this see if you if you did the same thing in life over and over it's like you're reading the same page of the book yeah yeah you know you want to try to read as many pages as well I enjoy that right so to me I find I'm a is going to step back so it may be been this kind of a stage of his life he's made enough money you've been very successful and he looks at it he goes you know I don't you know he doesn't have the same motivation to you know he was saying that yeah what do I have to prove man like the guys want to have you know he was so successful already in wrestling an MMA he's rich what else you know yeah he was talking about a post-fight he's he's considering retirement because he's managing his online training and he has a wrestling camp that he runs low and all this but he went into it because he wanted to prove he was the best fighter but now that's kind of out the window at this point you know he he can't take back the undefeated you know I mean he's been defeated now and I someone made a comment saying oh you know what a terrible trade you know white and then some posted like be kidding this is a wet dream he wants this career of a superstar now was just mastered all and he got one I've seen look silly now because they're number one guy that they couldn't find some of the beat now just got destroyed you know twice twice in a row yeah yeah so it's like this is all that he could do you know why even call it that he goes someone's been paying attention uh yeah there's a huge it's a huge win for the year but what one has come the United States though they are they they're communist a matter of time before they end up here and I wonder I was still gonna be the acceptance into the American market I think they're gonna have some resistance because most of their champions are Asian yeah a lot of the channel regions or not Americans and like in its Dana wouldn't much rather have Conor as a champion because he's an American English just part of the Anglo world right and in that sense what is Habib is I don't you know he's he's Russian man he's like a biggest rival like it's not the same thing so the UFC would prefer American champions or english-speaking champions at least because they sell more tickets as simple as that yeah I know there the UFC is working a lot in China they've built a UFC Institute there anything actually enforced he goes over there every so often to work with the athletes there so like they're putting in money because they know that's a market that's gonna blow up at some point yeah you know so they're putting in the ground roots so I think when I have sees just doing a counter strike of saying hey we can take you out your home turf also or we can at least take you up about challenge you a little bit yeah because they they definitely see the threat yeah they're definitely as a threat like one has done a really good job with their promotion they they're really grown in Asia apparently I think it's I mean that's like two-thirds the world population in that region they they are like they run as many if more shows in the UFC I believe at least because if you go I'm on their feet and there's new fights going on all the time I mean yeah it's just I'll be honest I haven't watched any I see the clips yeah they have some great stuff could knock on some stuff but like I don't know anything guys no I know I'm not sure they had to find the love was super high but you're right like I don't I know some of them but most of the guys on there I've never heard of yeah you know so that that's a problem they you have to create stars and it's difficult as a hard time doing that Bellator does you know I think you know to the extent every promotions ever come up is trying to make a star that people are gonna want to follow yeah because otherwise why am i tuning into your show if the UFC is around and the you've seen has all the famous guys and marketing behind it that everybody knows what's going on you know so it's kind of like nobody's really NFL is football right like sure you have like other leagues but nobody's watching the XFL or other stuff anybody watches NFL yeah so UFC is put themselves in that position where they are MMA and everybody else is like under leagues you know like they're either working to be in the UFC guys exactly like you're you know you fightin there's to get a spot in the UFC yeah so it's unfortunate that's the way it is but that's the reality of a situation right now you know so it's tricky because I think for fighters is better if there's more here I don't see anyone challenging NBA or the NFL anytime soon no I don't see UFC is not they have a monopoly and they are that Premier League no doubt but I don't think they have something that can't be challenged that's the difference the UFC can be challenged I think it's not it's certainly possible I mean I I guess at the NFL and and being not a chance no way in the world I could see it happening bad management some bad decisions one keeps doing a good job remember two-thirds the world population or in Asia alone I probably more than that really so you know if they keep building Asian champ Bin's that means a lot that's a lot of money man that's a lot of people it's a lot of sales and the truth of the matter is the the American Canadian Australian market which is probably two three quarters of the UFC's market not that many people if you do the math yeah not that means you only problem they have is that them that Western market is the highest paying market all right like at remember what happened with pride they went broke partly because they had some Yakuza dealings that ruffled everything up but also the Asian people view is nowhere near in comparison to what American people view value no they got a lot more strip a lot more so America American people view value is the number one place to meet right so like outside of that it's like everybody else's fight for scraps so I'm not sure like the broadcast model for whittling is that in changing as Asia continues to grow as an economic superpower particularly China right yeah because they're I mean look what they're I don't know what their GDP was twenty years ago we're now for that matter but I know it's growing a lot I mean they're like a year a few years away from topping us is the biggest economy in the world if they haven't already so there is a there's certainly a power shift here I think in a very geopolitical way like one and you have so you're kind of expressions of that now you can see that an Asian challenge to the American market and you see the American market trying to break into the Asian market like you described the UFC's presence in China yeah interesting like I'll be interesting how that plays out in the future yeah it would be and you know the other thing is the whole pay-per-view model is also changing too you know like now but we have subscriptions that you have to join in order to even get access to the pay-per-view so there's like a paywall you know so everybody and everybody is now used as a subscription model imagine back in the day you sit to watch your favorite TV show you have to pay 15 bucks a month you were like no I just get able or yeah and now we're all been trained by Netflix and Hulu and all these things I oh it's normal to pay 20 bucks a month so you can watch the regular broadcast shows yeah you know so there's a certain point you have to wonder is the pay-per-view thing gonna disappear and be able there's gonna be like I just pay for a UFC subscription and and it's had all that models uh yeah you're right I never thought about that long because I would honestly um I already have fight pass I'm already doing it you know yeah so it's not that much more of a stretch if they want to capture like way you get all the UFC's on five pounds no no you get lots of content you get access to the archive of all their content but not even a heart event that's occurring event you still have to pay for a pay-per-view so we get like a week later two weeks later when is he gonna be the archive I don't know like it's a good question and then it jumps in there I usually get like some of the fights I'll probably get this you know the VMF title yeah you know but like once every couple months I'll watch it you see like I'll buy a pay-per-view yeah and that then I'll just look at clips because they're just they're pretty pricey you know have you considered it's like a like 60s I need bucks to watch a pay-per-view yeah and if you're watching all the fights that means like four or five times a month that's a 300 bucks you're gonna throw yourself under yeah watch fights I mean even as a step that family yeah I don't need to watch it that much no I I just the other thing like I just kind of like I don't yeah I see high level fight I'll give you you know just maybe wrap this up like we if you're in a gym every day I see high level sparring and grappling every day if you put the average of if you had a put a number at the ADCC for example IBEW Jeff worlds or whatever and that is a 10 all right and that is the 10 will be like this is the average of this event it's a 10 I feel that that when I look at my competition class the average there is like a maybe 9 I have world class guys in my gym right I watched them roll every day to me that's like oh I have to see this if I take it's a little bit better so it's not super exciting to me anymore to like I have to watch the highest level stuff all the time because I see it every day and it's like a notch below on the average right but it's I said I'm used to seeing a high level fighting all the time and it's it's one reason why I believe that professional digits struggle so much they were real a hard time finding what a recipe like a template that works that it's profitable and does not require artificial money being injected into this that professional event all the time until the millionaire gets tired yeah and that's a similar thing common theme in BDS right yeah and it's uh it's difficult because you're in a gym every day you watch people roll every day it's not an anomaly to see for you to see grappling you won't you just attorney how many matches you watch when you go to a tournament yeah you go to Pan Am's you're gonna watch a - 300 matches in a day like it doesn't stop man so for you to get home and pay you know 20 30 $40 whatever to watch more jiu-jitsu on your weekend it's kind of like it's hard sell yeah that's that I think that's a problem with grappling in general it's not a spectator sport it's not it's a practitioner sport yeah well that they're trying to change that but it's almost like they're going they're swimming uphill you know because it's not it's a price to pay it doesn't it's never worked in jiu-jitsu they tried so many times the only model that works hates them for it because they're the only ones of the kit maybe from Nagano maybe some other advanced IBJJF they would they make a killing they're very successful but their platform is not it's not how much money flow pays to have their event I guarantee you that's not what I said that's I could drop in the bucket it is it's from competitors that's where the money is and it's very organic and sustaining right there's no artificial what we need a million dollars injected into ibj otherwise we're gonna go out of business like no they don't but like a lot of these professional events if they don't have an angel investor coming in and dump it in another 200 or had 300 grand and to keep in that show alive it doesn't work I know this for a fact as we've commented for that block don't see being Invitational I don't know how much money they spent yeah and you know granted the whole thing was organizing like 21 days which was like a miracle it it's all they're a lot more expensive than people think oh it's the prize money that's expensive that's not yeah yeah that's like it's not even a third of your costs yeah you know it's it's the flights the hotels the production yeah like all of them and the logistics it's it's a huge operation and money goes quick and there's a reason why people have such a hard time making jiu jitsu a professional sport yeah I think what you need to understand in order to make grappling common like where you can actually make money off pay-per-view sales and whatnot it has to be adopted on like a household household level essentially there has to be grappling classes in high school ya know school and whatnot where everybody's doing yeah because at that point then essentially everybody has done it and can appreciate it because grab thing is so technical that you can't just jump into it if you've never seen it I've been training it before right it's like if I was trying to say hey Rob let's watch this video on the technical processes of the diesel combustion engine you know really like I can't make sense of this it's not entertaining you know because it's very technical and you have to have prior knowledge to appreciate oh look at the beauty of this engine and how it works I know grab leads the same way it's very technical so it's a you can't just oh that looks cute everyone understands a knockout which is one reason why the rules in MMA are geared towards that audience because everyone understands a knockout a lot of people's look at a key more adult the hell's going on I don't even see the lock right until it takes a lot of training and even so it's not as exciting as a knockout and as a grappler I admit that I mean and I'm in an impressive way you know like I get excited about beautiful submissions right but it's it's it's a much harder so of the audience because grabbing is difficult to understand yeah it's like wine tasting and you just you have everybody random people drinking wine they're not going to appreciate it like a connoisseur and there's like oh you know the the origins and see I yeah I think like this is I don't think it's interesting at all I look at them what is that like I just want to get tipsy and like you know good get a buzz and so I'm looking at all right that's really what you look at what I'm the most important looking for yeah but I think that's some kind of thing that's how people will get you Jitsu like you nerds that's right there's that's the problem so like wait if people who want to make grappling like popular as a professional sport they actually you need to put the money in educate they need to be trying to get into like high school yeah middle school is that at an early stage and kind of indoctrinating people into this martial arts is then it's gonna be much easier to make anyway because now you have a larger potential audience right now we're still pitching to competitors or not even compare just people will practice martial arts all right like if we wanted to make those professional sports bigger for grappling there needs to be more grapplers you know or at least people who at an early age I've been exposed to it and can appreciate I will say this though the end of my business would be the day you just an Olympic sport it's gonna blow it for me you know why because now it's gonna be in school why would you pay for a membership you get it for free in school like it's like opening a resting Club how hard is it to make money from the wrestling club uh-huh like how many how many like amazing wrestlers are like out of a job so now they're out of college because unless they land a job coaching somewhere which is super competitive right or do you see front inaudible options same thing for judo yeah like Ronda Rousey was a waitress wasn't she like after the Olympics I heard I know I could be wrong but she was like wait waiting tables and she was like an Olympian think about that all right until she started fighting MMA I could be wrong that's what I heard don't quote me on it where it's because your Olympic sports so it's in a way for a business it's it's not go get an example just in Europe right yeah some countries can nade in countries France you know the government pays for everything in sports they're used to getting everything for free right so you go to judo training center or gymnastics whatever hockey the government pays for everything it's covered there like preparing you they want everyone practice sports for a number of reasons right Olympics overall health will be in happiness keep kids out of you know away from drugs and problems whatever it's very difficult to charge them the membership I hear from these gym owners because when they okay I go to the wrestling club and I paid 20 bucks a year and they go to the BJJ and while we won 100 and euros a month away what's it's it's you know it's it them it sounds crazy so they struggle it's difficult to make money and have like more than you know fifty hundred students on you because of you know the they're used to the government paying for funding sports I I as a fan as a practitioner and there's no contradiction there yeah it may sound like it as a fan as a practice this one who loves you Jitsu I would want you Jitsu the Olympics I want what you're describing we're like a lot of people and maybe the membership drops and we have more people training into high schools all over the country as a business owner and someone who has two children and I have bills to pay yeah I'm dependent on this money I'm like no way you know it's it's it's a it's a it's a Content and only a contradiction in terms of the fact that you know as as a as a as a practitioner someone who lives you Jitsu I coexist with these things so it's a contradiction in that sense not that you know you can have to be one or the other like I can love jiu-jitsu but not necessarily want it I would love it to be in the Olympics but at the same time like you know what I don't want to stop making money if I could figure out a way for it to be an Olympics and that not changed my income like that'd be great it's impossible I don't know yeah it is a good nice try word of that correctly maybe it sounds like a contradiction but know these things quick yeah I understand the point as a person who owns a school myself I hadn't thought about it like that which is a good point yeah it's kind of like when the UFC was rolling around making UFC gyms everywhere yeah and I'm Erin love school owners were worried because like essentially now we got a someone they could McDonald's opening up you see gyms and if there's all broke turns out didn't work out the best things ever happened yeah actually worked in our favor yeah it just brought more attention yeah but they didn't really have the quality these guys they end up at our gyms yeah after six months of training they switch away yeah so it kind of like a stepping stone ya know so it works out well but uh maybe but I do see your point cuz yeah there it I don't know of like private clubs or I know they exist but how Prof were they yeah can you make a living from yeah I have no idea right so it isn't interesting it would create a problem in that sense yeah cuz once people are trained to have something for free they're not gonna want to pay for it unless you can really demonstrate a lot of value behind what you're doing and I guess it would depend who's running these programs like if they start getting guys are you and me to teach other middle school it's gonna be a problem or a part of the young like even if I you know the average BJJ black ball makes way more money than the average wrestling coach I think you know they do a skill set it has to do with just like BJJ hasn't managed to be like an expensive sport right and still draw a lot of people because people will pay for it just about any amount of money for something they really want look at how much money you know we're more spent on a purse if they really want it they're gonna in that we have we have kind of become that in the world of martial art so we're very very pricing in comparison to would you do in wrestling aren't right yeah I like I said I'm two minds about it man like I I if things did change I'd be happy for future generations because it would get something I didn't get which was going to the Olympics yeah but it would break me be broke okay I'm happy for you but I'm broke am I gonna do now I gotta you know become well I don't know what I would do I mean I'm sure I can figure something out I really have to but it wouldn't be as good as this you know I'm very very happy with what I do yeah we work our asses off being a coach gym owners a lot more work than people think I'm sure I'm very stressful very stressful job but still better than most jobs yeah I agree so it would be interesting so hopefully maybe happens when I'm not around anymore huh going to the Olympics when I'm not around no longer no longer here all right Dave it was a pleasure this was always like our talks are very organic and not very planned we hope that you guys enjoy as well you got a lot of positive feedback right like people always and direct messages on my inbox like telling me how much they liked the podcast yeah yeah it's very underrated it's a huge compliment like I think that uh you gotta get the word out there and I've spread the word yeah you guys could do your Bart help us out we greatly appreciate it you know we're doing what we can we try to get no one out one out there a week was a pretty consistent about it so we're count on you guys to help or the work and there's some suggestions to do so if you guys got you know anything you would like us to talk about something that a maybe you know there's a sort of that or talk more about this less about that you know we're we're very happy to hear some positive and even negative feedback into something I'm doing wrong I'm happy to hear it like ah I don't take things personally like that like if I get criticism I always use it as a tool for growth so anything that comes our way appreciate it absolutely you know that God we had I was just talking to Robbie photo show somebody have any critique and I was sharing with them so we can learn from it you know so you think what we can do to improve yeah we're always looking to get better and that's yeah thank you guys for watching and we'll catch you in the next episode all right Joe [Music]