BTG 36 - Rodrigo "Comprido" Medeiros

[Music] hello everyone i'm robert rice till here you're back we are back with the breaking the guard podcast with my good friend and co-host David Avalon and today we have a very special guests good friend former training partner former teammate BJJ legend openweight champion two times open way champion Hall of Famer Rodrigo completamente who's also just commonly known as complete Oh complete Oh how you doing I'm doing fine so thanks for the invitation it's great to be here with you guys and and let's see let's see where these leaders all right we got sino can't compete or like he is we like that to speak some frank opinions on the state of jiu-jitsu and martial arts in the world so I'm sure this is gonna be a fun conversation the concrete oh I was I was wondering that you know I talked about because you you were part of the formation of Alliance at a time when it was still master I even before it was Alliance it goes way back right more or less I was I was the year I started doing jiu-jitsu was the year that the Alliance was put together and then I was training at the master academy and then I saw that but with the eyes of a white belt you know and then I was always close to the to the coaches and the people who who are the the founders of a line so I have a good inside information but there was not part of anything I was just starting at the time so you are who would you consider to be your jiu-jitsu instructor at that time at the time it was Zachariah was just when I start and then Lafayette I was instructed on the Academy but they could never consider well my my teacher because we are such a good friend I knew Lee all since I was nine years old you know so it's really hard you know that you know to have this relay this day personal relationship mix with the instructor and student relationship you know so I always see him as a friend and never as the coach you know but they obviously I learned a lot from him so instead of telling us what you've learned from Leo tell us who live here a story that no one's ever heard before give us something some childhood story between you guys I know you guys got some good stories childhood man he gets so pissed and I start to tell his stories that's the whole point but I like to tell to tell the stories in his presence you know like that I like to embarrass him okay okay that's okay let's go easy one when we are kids we used to play on the on the Block right so you be you know where I live where I used to live in Brazil so it's a block away from the beach and then we knew everybody on that block you know so all the kids I saw water as you should sue people who came from that street so on the maybe on the spring I don't know which time of the year the trees get full of the imelda it's not almond seed but yeah like is that is a big seed here this big you know and then you used to play barrels on the street and then obviously people were passing and get get hit by and like when we hit somebody we make sure we hide you know and then this day we hit somebody leo is on the top of the tree and then these guy walk walks to him really serious and then he said to him that's the R word that starburst notion Oh Bart the guy was American right so and then he speak with this broken Portuguese and and asking him to come down to the tree or he gonna call the police and Leo was trying to to to hiding you know but it has no to go he was on the top of the tree and the guy yelled on him and stuff and the moment the guy turned his back and start to walk away we are behind the car and we start throw stuff on the crack is hard to remember funny is the time that he killed the fish you know like it was it wasn't the pot was one of the in Brazil it's very common have those carp fish on the on the buildings you know like they look good it's these little pools with this carp fishes date and then we are was me Marcelo kazusa the guy who teaches with me here and then a friend of ours there and Leo right so for every reason when you tap on the water the carps jumps you know so Leo tap on the water when when the the carp jumps he kicked the carp and and then probably the carp died right the doorman calls the police so suddenly the police arrive I'm gonna ask you guys you guys cue the card to steal the car no no the carp is fine the carp is just resting yeah I I can prove the carpet just rest and then he put the carp on the water and he push but the man you guys got a lot of history in like it was a very very important period in history of digits like we can really know that that that laughs that's seen in you know in Ipanema /co oh but a South Zone rise Donna sue is has entered that the history books of digits because so many of the dominant shoes today came out of that region like if you look at the best Brazilian jiu-jitsu teams today in the world they can all trace back their lineage that small little neighborhood of Rio de Janeiro so maybe talk a little bit about what like the jiu-jitsu scene was like in the zona su you know like growing up in the 90s you know and so like you know I mean then we're from there we can kick off into your career because I'm a little familiar with that but I wanted to hear what the scene was like it was competitive I know there's a huge rivalry between Brazilian jiu-jitsu and luta livre what was it like before the jiu-jitsu boom or as the jiu-jitsu boom was occurring and hoist Gracie was winning yeah the rivalry between two sheets and little if it doesn't take place too much where we used to live you know because the guys from Luton live normally they they are more towards butter fugu from here we know they live around you know the huge room all on that area so it's a little bit for the Rio standards that's a little bit farther so and then the things happen towards that side or in Baja you know that the fight between Hicks are a no-go happen on Pepe and ba da Tijuca so when I was growing up Leo is already doing jiu-jitsu way younger and then me and my friend most of my friends besides him we started doing like kickboxing boxed Allen days I had done Taekwondo for a bit you know and that's more or less when the first value to to happen you know and then we said yeah [ __ ] this you should sue guys if you guys like to hug man you guys are homosexuals you know all those those jokes and then the the look I'll leave the guys getting bit get gotten bit and you know said okay these guys are tough did you [ __ ] so guys but it was not my thing you know suddenly all my friends left the kickboxer and I started doing jujitsu some went to training at Boleyn Academy what is one of the students of Carson Grace and some went to the Jakara Academy you know so sometime later my cousin Morrison asked me to join him on the jujitsu and then that point I never managed to train him with my friends because they just went for a different Academy so was not okay at that time there's America the guy's our childhood friend we were not training with for him is a friend of mine that I just went to training with him last year I know the guy since I'm nine years old is the guy's a black belt you know like now his he doesn't do this professional he's a judge now but he come visit last year is the first time that they trained after him and Marcelo the the marshal kazusa the guy who who teaches at my Academy he he is one of my friends who went to teach at Wolong you know and they and I just went to watch one of his class to visit his Academy maybe I don't know maybe ten years ago you know and and then the opportunity presents and he moves he moved here but was it was very competitively I would not say we will not speak with the the guys from another Academy but it was was not the way it is today definitely you know it's in no way you would consider go training with somebody who's not member of 15 yeah that sounds very familiar to me I know when I started training I play around I started trying around nineteen when I started doing mixed martial arts and all that after wrestling I remember my brother and I were winning naga tournaments and we got invited by the Sevilla brothers Conan and Marcos to their gym and this is like 2000 and I remember going in there it was like going into the gang initiation you know because I'm like 18 years old my brother 19 and it's a bunch of thirty year old guys or all tattooed up anyways I'm looking like real mean you know they like a hobbit right it was very unfriendly you know and and that was very familiar the times that you ever went to cross-train it was like that it was the it was it was like going at the gang territory you know so I think now like what you're saying is very true like nowadays it's like oh you know you can go anywhere to train it's no big deal you know there's no like there's not as much political problems or like people like oh you're from that team I'm gonna kick your ass ik so it's interesting that that has changed I wonder it's because now that Internet has made accessing all sorts of people easier or I don't know what you would think like what what has made that barrier come down where before cross-training was such a frown upon thing and now it's standard I think the the the assess of the information is one thing because look I if I'm training with for Hallberg every day right so most likely I know which are hobbits witnesses you know so and then I don't wanna water people to know that Hobbit will not want one or other people to know that so he will he will not like that I was going to train with somebody who might fight him that's that's how we think at the time and that's well that's why people do not compete against teammates and then I still is no chance that I will ever compete against a teammate i close brackets with a hobbit before but that's the thing I know stuff about him and he knows stuff about me that we want to keep a secret if we have to fight he gonna use his knowledge because then he gonna have to beat me you know and then make easier for other guys that's the initial thing and on top of that I feel very uncomfortable to have to facing my friends you know if it's today somebody asked them do you want to fight a hobbit I would say no do you I pay you to fight hobbit I said no there's my friend I I get together to with him and we fight you I appreciate that a lot because I know I'm the same way I know some people don't like when teams close out but I feel that when I'm competing I mean I we spoke a little about yesterday I said the same thing for me I'm always trying to go out there and kill the guy in front of me whatever rule said they have I don't want to do that against my brother you know like we there's enough Jim words that we can have that we don't need to do it out in public especially like if you're thinking like an MMA or whatnot you don't want to bust someone's nose or break a leg or anything like that with a teammate specially when you can avoid when you are in a you know MMA you cannot avoid that most of the times you know like it is a way to avoid but it's a point that you cannot do anymore it's two guys fighting for the belt it's hard to avoid that but as much as you can avoid enemy do a amateur sport you know like when we talk about your sheets is an amateur sport I pay my registration and if I choose not to fight a teammate that's my my decision you know and you know I never fight for real against a teammate I have couple fights that I have to do four to pretend you know like Abu Dhabi I have to fight them and once you know thank you and we could not go away of that I have to fight the whole nieta Abu Dhabi as well what's not my teammate but there's another story you know on that time that's close the bracket I have to fight five Bushehr one time and all right because was on TV see huh you know but it's all fake fights it is a long tradition in Brazilian Jujitsu we're going to talk a little bit that a documentary of fake fights but like the fake fights I've actually played a huge role in making Brazilian jiu-jitsu possible we're gonna make that case because the people could not sell fights to the audience unless they were entertaining so it was the only way they had to survive and allow time for BJJ to exists was orchestrating fights right what I thought was interesting but yeah completely you like you I mean I remember when I started training the very first magazine one of the first magazines I bought had you on the cover of finishing bullets and a toehold and like right after that you on the cover with Leo lacy you had to close the bracket for the open right might let him the next year I can't remember now but you're one of the first names that that popped into you know Ike were part of like the my you know my idea of competitive jiu-jitsu those early days it was you don't the first name that popped up and I remember you what you went for a toehold and uncle it from open guard right which is a pretty standard move to go for it's not quite a 50-50 if I remember but it looked almost like a toll hold from fifty-fifty from standing and I remember like a lot of people like a little shocked about that because we're talking 99 here right if memory serves me well and at that time in Brazil especially Brazil going for a foot lock was like it wasn't illegal but like in Chi box and if you teach someone to the face it's like blasphemy like people want to attack you like they have signs at gyms and Thailand that say no teep the face you can shim me in the eye no problem but if you put the sole of your foot on my face I will kill you you know and foot locks were a little bit like that during that period in Brazil and in some corners it still might be it's changed you know almost completely but there might be some of that left somewhere but talk a little bit about that like you because I guess this whole discourse today that goes on about people ignoring half the body right we Nora and half the body like no we're not like ninety nine we were you know compete O's win the world title with a toehold that's just not true but talk a little about that like you know how your interpretation of jujitsu at the time compared to what the perception the common perception was of how someone should fight just just gonna go back a little bit to things that you had said just to make clear like the the fake fights from the fake fight say I make never I never make a fake fight for being interesting and I understand what you're saying about the commentary the only one that people think and to this day that was was real was me and holy etta all the other fake fights I did everybody kind of everybody knew was was fake and Damian people pretend they don't know is fake you know like on the Abu Dhabi or from the did the Abu Dhabi people you know was actually the year to go to the tournament and a year that you want right now I know I know you're talking about yeah so it was some final we could not avoid that and at that time then it was training much better than me I could even actually at that point go to him and say hey I'm the older guy and you give the victory to me but it wasn't right you know here's the one who was better if you fight for real he probably would beat me and then he went there and he did a great tournament you know and then talking about the foot locks so toe holes are old when I was young okay when I start doing sheets that's very old but people see that's as a cheap technique low-level technique you issued if you are not very good you would attack foot locks you know it's a way that don't develop your shoe sheet so because they should keep attacking foot lock you don't worry about passing the guard and blah blah blah and then I saw people throwing bottles on the math you know my sub black belts finishing each other and then being booed and stuff like that and I had that some foot locks before you know on the final offer brown belt nationals I finish shoo-shoo Kyle Shamu in Fatah ho same thing I actually finishing him twice with the same toe hope because he's he yelled and said ah and then I let him go release the pressure and they said tap and he said no no no I did not tap it's a dude you tap I said no I did okay I looked at the referees never said keep going so then I pop his foot you know so but obviously don't attract any attention because was just a brown belt finishing another brown belt the only reason that finger tax so attract so much attention is because was the final of the waltz I was fighting against I had fought on that a year the truth the true guys on the final I thought they might understand final the the the champion of the year before and Julieta was the the second place the year before 98 and that was part of my game plan I of course never thought it will happen the way it happened so fast and on top of to be this a submission on the last fight of the tournament is the first time somebody ever had a submission on the black belt final and was the fastest submission in jujitsu a world championship finals until last year you know so that's why give so much momentum but even here hooks like ding Lisa did do this for so long Eric balls away before Jean yeah the luta livre guys in Brazil get it home it was coming from the guys from luta livre very common from the guys motolinia but no that's interesting I remember well that episode with the whole letter and it was a big book I didn't know that was the fastest submission and so last year you said who didn't like move to messy beat you magnet move yeah well if another foot lock yeah that's interesting huh quick submissions for sure Dave I wonder like I don't want to ask anything about this period again about the full lock covers you don't want to get into some of like the more you know recent topics you know and so the more what's going on in jujitsu today and I don't know if you wanted that you know yeah I know you were mentioning Dean Lister and I know you've trained and coached people on MMA I think Dean was one of them correct oh [ __ ] damn for a dish you see ok ok ok and I know you've also coached famously Brock Lesnar so that's I know that must be interesting such a big dude how was that like did you find him to be like receptive towards learning yes always always being very actually was was much much better training with for him I will not say easy but much better training for him because he's the one guy who did not try to to destroy me to rip my head from my body every single time we were facing each other was always about to beat each other but on the challenging ourselves make sure we are getting buried make sure he was doing something better to date and then he was doing yesterday and every time he got me something he knew I would be really upset and I will keep trying to to get him back you know and then there are other guys many times they just want to prove themselves and and you know a bunch of heavy wrestlers you know high-level wrestlers so many times go if the Brock was who was the best of the day no because there other guys come crazy you know and not that they disregard in hurting you or not like your wrestler you know how it is you know restless training hard all the time you know like and sometimes if you're not prepared I have to do adjustment because under the first things I didn't know really well you know like such so much pressure or so fast you know like I guess what the heck let's let's know each other first there's no judgment wrestlers is all spaz right from the from the beginnings is going nuts I know I think that throws a lot of people off because a the first coach that I trained down there this guy Randy when we trained my brother he my brother was got into MMA first and I was still wrestling and when I trained with them my brother was tapping me with arm bars I'm really good chokes because I didn't know what was going on they got me pissed I'm okay I'm gonna go who do I train with and he goes ah this is my coach and when I went with his coach I actually tapped the coach the first time I got him with the Americana and because I was just going back nuts and they caught him and then I was like ah this guy's not that good man like if I tapped him the first time you know how is that how is he gonna teach me but then I learned sure they because he got pissed and then he kicked my ass all over the place but I think it's just like a different intensity when especially I think earlier jujitsu guys were a lot more calm you know when they were trained it was more technical whereas wrestlers are always just about exploding and going wild wrong I also learned in dispute of time how technical wrestling is you know you cannot do those tack you cannot pick somebody up the way these guys pick if you don't have the perfect technique and it's the same technique on the end of the day I believe who wrestling jujitsu are the same fight with different rules you know but the body movement your body gonna work the same way when you're practicing whereas when you're practicing you sheets but the rules make wrestling a much more intense fight it's much shorter as they stop all the time and restart so you have to go with intensity you cannot be lazy on wrestling you know I was just gonna say that it's done it's in the wrestling's nature to be spazzy and aggressive and because just for exactly the reason just gave the short rounds right actually this has been single-handedly me and Dave have discussed this before but one of the biggest advantages wrestlers have had him in May because the resume format is very close to wrestling in that regard right because you get like five minutes of absolutely intensity you get a little break another five minutes of high intensity and it's it's you need to have that sort of level of aggression in order to fight well you know scrambles you can't afford to lose a scramble in a fight you might not have another chance right so now I I always find the training with wrestlers is a fun because I like to train like that where at least I used to like I know that the war like I never like Rome it's never it's only fun if you know we're trying to kill each other but all wrestlers from my experience train like that 100% of them high intensity balls to the wall kill kill kill which makes it fun but at the same time very damaging to the body like I think that in terms of longevity that's not a good formula and then for us for us from my from the Jewett's perspective sometimes when the guy come like that you know because it's still hobbit is very intense but it's not the same intensity that a wrestler you know so it's almost we're not say offensive but you think the guy really dislikes you you know and he attack you on that way but is actually the opposite is hardly the guy attack you is more respect than his showing because he said man I have to go if everything got or this guy gonna beat me up you know I should go in for wrestler and in his plane I'll lose the way I play is that this [ __ ] completely disregard for me not even me so and then you like working with those wrestlers working with the guys from Minnesota help me to understand a bunch of stuff you know to to separate a bunch of myths that we we believe do you know that restaurants are no not technical they are that they would get tired restless will not get tired guys super athletes you know but it was a good period of my life I learned a lot and I have some I have lots of fun so Cooper let me ask you me I remember like when I when I you know when I started training like you talked about jujitsu Guinot gay MMA it was all the same thing I didn't I never we didn't make a distinction between jujitsu and volley to know like if you did one you did yeah there it was almost like the same sports and I'm the Saints wear glitter the rules were different but if you liked one you liked the other if you follow the one you followed the other but if you bought a magazine to talk about jiu-jitsu the next article was about Bali - no and like no one thought that that was a problem with that today we have very specialized press we have very specialized you know events we have very specialized rules and we are watching sort of you know what we used to be one thing turn into well I like key with these rules I like noogie with those rules and MMA it's been its own thing for a long time we'll discount that but how do you feel like and I think that's a reflex of growth maybe you agree with me like as it grows maybe that's the natural tendency is for people to become more specialized but talk about like I mean you had you're able to win this firsthand not only the jiu-jitsu boom of the 90s but also its stake today Rio you've been this more for like 30 years so you know what's what's what's your perception of the evolution of jiu-jitsu at becoming a worldly sport from 90s to today man that's the the blast you know that's all we want you know like when I start you sheets was no perspective to have somebody just making his life his living of competing in jiu-jitsu in any shape any format that you want you know there's no money at all you know I got money I get paid very few times from early on my career or something willfully bought you know what is one generation before me first time he got paid was in Abu Dhabi you know what is also the first time that I thought a grappling in grappling rooms you know no gauge you know now is impossible you get somebody just showing up in Abu Dhabi you know I should sue guy first tournament nogi Abu Dhabi this doesn't happen I haven't have a tournament that that one looks like I am a made that I have a kid or a guy has no G but that is with kicks and slaps Wow so I had two fights like that before Abu Dhabi but we used to training you know thinking about you Jitsu is not thinking about the separations is just for marketing on my opinion you know like when you say I do self-defense Jiu Jitsu I dunno gives you [ __ ] so I do gives you [ __ ] I do competition I do infeasible I do green I do whatever other leg grapes is you that's all should Americans you sheets you know right that's all a way to label something in order to to benefits you to bring something that you a part of the sport that you do well or that make sense for you to advertise yourself on that on that place you know but you should use it so you should to be able to do self-defense to do a basic email today is impossible you know so you take a guy on jujitsu as before when horses start the fight you could take a Roger sheets a guy and throw inside the the cage and he will do well or a wrestler or a boxer you know that was okay at that time today doesn't matter you take the best wrestler in the world if it doesn't have a training for MMA he's gonna be destroyed same thing with the best boxer same thing with the best you sheets of fighter if he doesn't train the autumn the other parts he'll be smoked and you know become a lot of a lot of fragmented on this way I hate that is so many rules you know it's much easier if you follow just one rule I believe there are J ever the the best rules the best routes at you know but in my time you will be fighting key or no key or whatever you know now is people who only fight nogi people who only fight whiskey you know becomes a lot of more specific what I don't really think is bad at all you know I think that's everything you know a tennis players to play tennis on the on the dust and on the the grass but he probably gonna be burying one of those true right sure I think yeah like you're saying it's just well a lot of labeling of course I think it's marketing people trying to create a legacy for themselves by establishing their own sect you know like when you say Gracie jiu-jitsu its to say the Gracie name will carry on and that's our contribution to society or whatnot not as much as it gets a very different style the one thing I thought you were funny when you talk about self-defense Jiu Jitsu I always found that like very silly like something oh what's it good art for self-defence well mixed martial arts is self-defense if you can find the cage you can find the street you know I mean mine is like algae or the I make a distinction that self-defense is when you can protect yourself against somebody who doesn't know nothing and the more and then when you do MMA or valued whatever I saw Cove a little all the tide because that's name a learn but that's when you you have to prove yourself against somebody as good as you or even better than you you know because a lot of these techniques that you will learn from self-defense they're gray if you if you doing if somebody who never you know training anything you know but if I try to do half of that stuff will not work against you because you have such a good base standing that you know those half-assed techniques will not work so I have to be much more specialized to do that and that's one important the category of MMA of course yeah if you do MMA you don't need self-defense you know yeah definitely I say it should not be a little bit fragmented like that you should have learn every everything you know I'm not saying that in jiu-jitsu class you're going to learn how to punch perfectly you're gonna learn how to do a double leg the same way we wrestlers do this will never happen you know like you're gonna lower to punch perfect when you learn from a boxer for somebody who really knows how to do it you're gonna learn how to do the perfect takedown double leg when you learn from the from a good wrestler a good taker I have a good I'm good standing you know my judo is pretty good I training judo a lot and then I had Lowell H coming to do a class online class on my academy for my students yesterday and I said ah hello man I do this style Tosh but I that's the way I teach and I know is wrong you know because they give three steps for them before the technique and I said can you show the way you do and then the guy just do choose two steps you know I'm consider myself a knowledgeable coach I am tough to put down I complete judo a lot but still my technique is not as perfect as somebody who is specialized in that absolutely I think that goes you know I mean this is the law of economics right like you we can't be good everywhere we can't be experts everywhere there's always going to be somebody who if they spend their time in one particularly area they're gonna be better than us because they've devoted everything to this but then they have ignorant and other things so I mean you've been involved with coaching and it may and I know you've seen now like it looks like jiu-jitsu is having less of a role in MMA now than it historically has where to me it seems more often than that now we're looking at like boxing fights with some wrestling and there's few standout side still or capitalizing and very good Jiu Jitsu but uh I wonder what you think than that because no keeping that in mind that because that people can't spend their time everywhere and especially in the fight game they have to pick their spots and I think what most coaches are thinking it's easier it takes much longer to get really good at Jiu Jitsu than it does to become a striker or even just to have enough wrestling you know not to get taken down and basic stuff what do you think about that and not just that that the Jiu Jitsu is like even even wrestling that they I think is a pretty complex fight jujitsu is much more complex than wrestling you know the rules of sheets are also much more than the rules of wrestling a law and boxing is men it's pretty basic you know like you know we learn all the movements of boxing in your first week and then you just have to improve the way you you perform those movements in jiu-jitsu I don't know everything what there is to know and you should so hobbit doesn't know and I don't think nobody in the world knows every single movement in jiu-jitsu you know so it's a lot of more complex and another very important important factor that we touched earlier boxing wrestling are our fights that are much fair not much faster the rounds are much faster you have to be pressure right away Sugie tzu you know depending who is the the fighter like on my case I'm the guy who take my time to set up my stuff I'm kind of a lazy fighter I'm not super aggressive you know I take my time to set up my stuff and then a lot of people plays like that and even the aggressive guys in jiu-jitsu they look passive if you compare with the intensity of wrestling you know so that makes more sense to you for you to fight under you on the UFC format that's five minutes on the pride then you have ten minutes and then five then Jew sheets will show up much better you know and on top of that if you go to the floor the other guy doesn't have to follow you that he can just pull you up you know that the format of MMA is to make you fight standing you know the discussion comes up I always want to say it you got to remember if you're on the bottom you can't kick alright if I were in garden that can kick you in the head my guard would be a hundred times more efficient oh you have a really hard time ground and pounded me if I can shine you in the head from the bottom right so it's one of those things that I don't actually think that should be legal like that's my opinion that should be a legal move because I'm on the bottom I should be able to kick the person on top but not everyone agrees yeah no I I mean I'm out for that I think the less rules the better you know I finally we're doing I mean by little everything goes right I feel it should be the same way I hate that you can you know as a bond guy up cake someone was on their knees or like likewise the guy standing can't stomp on somebody or whatnot I like pride rules the best of any of the rules for that reason I like the longer round and I have felt that not long around let grappling matches be better and it's also a little more realistic you know I mean I know fighting is not realistic in the sense in the rules but it's closer you know right I I hate the idea of someone being Saved by the Bell you know in between rounds that's like this I mean it breaks the realism right because you're like if this was a real fight this would have been over but you got singles for it yeah I I you know I I understand you can't do them no time limit anymore because it's not good for TV and whatnot but there's something to be said about those those earlier C's where there were no time limits no rules no weight limit but no weight limits and you could grab people by the hair I think was it that your voice won again it's chemo by grab my hair setting up the triangle you know so it's kind of pretty wild right hey I always think it's a good thing for the young guys to learn I know they como the younger fighters I haven't watched the earlier season like what you can do that like yeah I got a date these people were crazy you could have put such a powerful weapons oh yeah people don't realize it but like yeah like dan7 won a lot of fights is by head-butting people manfully talk about a weapon yeah a big advantage if that was a law but do you know how how these uh this value to do between jujitsu and low deliberate took place right so they they convinced the the biggest TV station in Brazil to show live right so and it wasn't the afternoon I think if I'm not wrong so but they lied they were going to the organizers lied and said that would be open hand or almost like a grappling match right so first fight Valley G and ya know Shane you and Valle de started to headbutt him and get his face out bloody yes you know like this was so good for you sheets but also was so bad because that's where they start to call us pit boys and and make our imagine anybody really bad because the executives did it to the global channel hated jiu-jitsu and MMA for so long you know like it was a value to do fight but they see as the jujitsu guys fault don't press yeah I think it was similar didn't happen here in the US when the UFC came and all right they started calling a human cockfighting and all that and but I think that was because it was boxing the boxing try not to give any space you know for for competition you know I don't know if at that time I assume so at that time the WWE would be the biggest competitor of boxing you know and then they did not want a third party involved and then they did everything they could to secure UFC yeah for my understanding was a mix of both the WWE and boxing that didn't like MMA stepping in and I think one of the reasons I think was Anna historische was a big sponsor of those or a particularly WWE I believe and there was actually John McCain that had pushed through the legislature yeah yeah John McCain to get the UFC off you know so we have politicians to think for the current state of enemy but it's hard to say if it was a good thing or a bad thing if the sport would have been able to grow in its old format yeah I think and after day turns out well yeah really really well for the for Cheeta really bad for the for the Gracie's you know for Horry oh you know who sewed supership you know you know but one thing that I remember well when when you know when I first started training and when I first becoming more familiar with MMA there was one thing that everyone agreed on everyone who trained jujitsu and followed the UFC back in the late 90s early 2000s everyone knew the sport was gonna blow up there was a sense of confidence that MMA was so much more exciting than than boxing you know that it was just a matter of time before then they took over and I'm not sure what the pay-per-view sales are like worldwide between MMA and boxing I'm I imagine the MMA has a bigger audience today I don't know for sure but I feel very confident is saying that anything is more interesting for the average viewer yeah III would agree with you there I think right now boxy paper viewers are still bigger but they're less frequent like right now there's so many MMA cards that it's kind of made it harder for them to get those higher pay-per-view numbers because there's so many events to watch but as I say I think if you average it out over time yeah I think yeah I don't know we might be in the bubble now with the way social media works it's sending you what you like you know but I can't move away from seeing it stuff about MMA I mean this is just everywhere I think the fact that you have the UFC you know or the what boxing really doesn't have are like strong organizations that are pumping out events frequently right they're usually doing like one-off cards like oh we do a big fight here and then we do a big fight there since there isn't like it one thing that's constantly moving there's no momentum going behind it you know like the UFC every event is essentially building off the previous one I think and boxing if you could rely a lot on the on the fighter and that the UFC create a brand the UFC they don't want to promote the fighter as much you know is the UFC champ they're not so much the fighter you know right exactly right because now you think what you said it's the UFC champ you know and then the sport is called UFC you know there's a joke that people say oh I trained UFC but it's a reality because there's no because oh I trained Golden Boy boxing right yeah so like boxing is still the sport whereas you have si has done the job of like you said branding itself to be the sport so it kind of sucks for the fighters because it takes away leverage from them you know like the only guy whereas like serious clout is Conor McGregor you know he's the one guy that essentially has like Mayweather like star power in the USD and but like that was intentional though I think Dana knew enough from boxing to see that he wanted his organization to be the name and no fire up the Connery or riot has ever carried enough way to actually be able to challenge you see Connor had that sort of power but no one else never been even come close to doing that it's because a bra is always made sure the UFC I don't think he could also start is the own organization and sell the way you know I think Connor could probably have like put together organization to rival UFC if you fought on it you know I don't know maybe I'm maybe I'm pushing a little too far but the UFC definitely is a name that out does the name um if any fighter out there I just you know it's it's about the UFC people remember the UFC above any other fighter for sure he did make a good point Brock Lesnar was the original superstar I would say before Connor was whenever Brock came into a fight like he was able to do whatever you wanted yeah one of the reasons because he was before us she yes it was a start before UFC you know not that day is not it's obviously a bunch of national wrestling champions over there and even our linkage changes but because of the WWE Brock has so much leverage you know he's so well known and then he's his behave off there is the way that I wanted this this [ __ ] to happen or this [ __ ] will not happen you know and then I'm a clear look I will do this on these circumstances you know kind of what McGregor does just that McGregor really enjoy to be in front of the cameras and I don't think about Brock have so much fun to be in front of the cameras so I guess bringing this back at the grappling right now we don't really have someone like that I guess it's closest thing we have would probably be Roberts favorite persons [Laughter] yeah but yeah I mean it's it's it's funny because I find the jujitsu is in this crossroads and history doesn't repeat itself right like jig or O'Connor originally moved away from the term jujitsu because he didn't like the association with professional fights fake fights the circus he wanted to distance himself from that idea right and you know we're watching a huge push especially in North America to make jujitsu professional maybe it's for the better but they're really you know they're learning from the lessons from pro wrestling and boxing and it's becoming more and more like pro wrestling in boxing and less and less like the judo from where it came from you know so there's there's that element I don't know I go back and forth on it maybe it's better for people the fighters yeah they make money but I think overall for the sport we do lose a little bit I think that we we would have we have a lot to learn from judo in the sense of its values and philosophy and respect and all those things that I feel are being lost they were lost in Brazil and they're further lost as BJJ becomes professionalized right I would like to see a going back to our roots in like looking at martial arts as a way of really improving on people you know but it's not it's not the position of the does it-- guys now the current moment is one for entertaining yet any cost you know it's all about entertainment and and everything else kind of takes a backseat to that you know but I don't know if long-term that's gonna stick I wonder if that's gonna be the norm moving forward or if at some point you know it's gonna be ready attire that and gonna go yeah man like jiu-jitsu was better when you know we want a trash-talking and I think you shoot the trash talk don't you don't like that guy you know not trash talk for trash talk and whatever but I feel like it really is you know it's kind of falling it's it's cold tails yeah I think it's it's very easy to spot fake trash talk or just people who are trying to get attention and I don't know to me when I see it's very needy you know it seems it's very weak to media I like I like guys like Demian Maia you know that they have to me that they're good ambassadors for the sport yeah kind of like what you're saying Robert there's their credit to like the virtues of the martial arts training because it ultimately the idea behind I would hope beyond the sport is to get more people behind the movement you say you know most of us are gym owners and we want more students in their gym at the same time giving back to the lessons that we've learned to the martial arts you know I think we can pose that question to I mean buddy like would you sell your martial arts experience for ten million dollars or hundred million dollars and for me the answer is always no right that I it's part of who I am now and it would be something I would hope more people would have and when we start supporting people by giving them more money or more attention for trash-talking or you know doing all the crazy stuff that Connors done it sends the wrong signal to me because as a younger guy you look at that like oh that's what I need to do to be at the top of the game that's what I do that's what I need to do to get respect right which is actually I wanna usually a lack of respect is how you get respect yeah there is the mathematical respect you know like all those mafia movies you should do respect but the guy who doesn't respect nobody's saying that you know and then like if so you have so many good people to promote Damian step a was a great guy he still work with the firefighters Rose namajunas you know it's a bunch of good people that you could promote and then I understand fresh top sales and stuff is a character but why are you just 101 character why not to have the other ones and then those those guys are legit they are who they are you know there are nice people you know they don't trash talk to you and and to the point that you want to fight them and then they go and start trying to hug you as a man that's just for the camera truck man tell me what you think about me I tell you what I think about you you know I don't know don't [ __ ] me exactly you know they took me one of the guys that I think it was iconic for his persona was Mike Tyson but it wasn't a persona that was Mike you know I remember told me years ago the only time in his life he was scared of fighting someone was when Vandelay looked him in the eye I like a cross you know and just like start doing a little ham thing that he did you know like the only time in my life that I was actually scared of another man because I realized that that guy was a true psycho and he was ready to kill me in there if he had to and he wasn't fake but uh compared to let me ask you this before I let you go know you're busy tons of stuff going on but let me ask you this if you had dictatorial powers I'm getting you all the powers in the world right you are forcing the same true king of jiu-jitsu you have the power to change everything you got your green hair going and you're sitting on this high throne and you had you can change the rules you can change people you can change how people look at it you can change make jiu-jitsu any way you want what would you do man I just wish the and that's weird coming from me because you know that I always be a strategist I always try to pick the the way that I could win but I wish the jiu-jitsu become a little bit more all around you know because what happened today is not just that but what happened today a lot is people pull guard and they will not even sweep you if they don't think they can land on your back you know and I liked and we always like the pass right so maybe that's what the way it's supposed to be but I think I like I like to make people to learn side control attack side control defense and how to pass guard you know but what'll happen is choose skinny guys that the little guys they pull each other's guard and then the guy on top really don't is not trying to pass it's just trying to defend himself and find a way to disengage and pull guard you know that's what I would change a little bit but that's that's a strategy you know and I understand why the things happen the way they are and then the only way to change that is when some group of dominant passers show up on the light divisions and start to passing everybody guard and then there's gonna be fashion and everybody gonna start to pass the guard the way those guys do you know cuz we have pretty good guys passing guard Alejandro doesn't even stay in the 50-50 you know Boucher pass card really well they fight to be standing but I think has to happen on the lower belts you know now I agree that's a small change corporator I thought you're gonna revolutionize the sport way more than no I think the rules always gonna be improve this is the stuff that I don't mind that I don't think supposed to work the way it is but I think they work you know I don't know if you are on the group I assume you are when they change the rules they send stuff for us to review and to give our opinion you know and I think that's important to have the input of the the cultures and the fighters you know but the roses cannot be and that is something that I like an idea Jeff they don't do stuff just to make the fact that the fights more exciting but also to protect the athletes in some cases is over protection but you know I be in cases you know that training with a friend of ours who is tetraplegic you know in a training for something that today would be illegal you know also when I was training with facial many years ago he shoot a single lag and with the head outside and then when I sit and throw him he any falling on his head and then broken his neck you know and he's in a wheelchair you know they're like as a wrestler you're my thinking I'm a man who cares about shooting with the head outside we suplex people and stuff but now I guess you know some stuff marked me really deep you know this is the right stuff I started I died in front of me for use of steroids and also the there are other drugs I saw people wasting their lives you know like a [ __ ] bird knows where I live I live in now I live in a building in Brazil that has a bar okay right front so to go to my house I have to walk inside the bar in front of the bar there's no way and then I saw so much people wasting their whole life over there people who are there when I was walking out and when I'm walking back in and since I was a little boy and some of these people still most of them died do you know mostly for complications in there in that and you know Hobart one day the guy go to Cabrillo canudos is one of the best competitors from my generation you know a lower belts you know purple brown belt so it's a very good friend of mine and I don't drink much I almost never drink you know especially when when I was young and then Gabrielle was talking with this friend of his and they said ah complete a man disc this guy is really tough man and man I tell you he has to be super tough because I see him drinking every day he's always on the door of the bar so it's no way to this day sometimes I am going home or I leaving and I saw like some people already drunk that know me that will slow me down for 15 minutes and sometimes they try to hide myself when I do that to Minister the inter phone rings okay just come outside yeah I got a few friends like that at least a few yeah but um anyway I was just gonna comment on what you were say at the end there were the rules I I can appreciate like how you know traumatising that can be like of your training accident with somebody that you care about they get paralyzed I've we've been close to having that one so I have one of my students who got suplexed and landed right on her neck couldn't feel her toes and it looked really bad fortunately she was able to make a recovery and she's now fighting you know still but there was like a day where they were the doctor please tell me is another girl suplexing her it wasn't you know it was it was a total accident like the way he went down like it didn't it was just a combination of bad things that happened you know the guy was a really nice guy he come yeah but yeah but there were a lot of people that wanted to kick his ass right but she made a recovery but after that you know it always makes you question things about how you do things like I know we had once that the one that people always ban the leg scissors right yeah and we had it was weird because we were doing that technique for years nothing ever happened and then in the span of two weeks two people broke their legs you know like what the hell but at that point that you know what no more likes to do this like it's just I don't know what happened where suddenly the technique became super fatal but like it was just too much you know and but for competition I I don't know you know for training I get it we like I try to be more conservative for training you know especially now like I don't want people getting hurt in training you know that's not the time to get hurt in competition I very own that amateur I don't mind where rules are more restrictive it makes sense these are enough professional athletes I'm a professional athlete I feel like they're grown-ups they can make their own decision on what rule said they want to fight under you know i-i-i i guess i don't know now like when I was a fighter I wish there was less rules you know I want to be able to do the head buds I want to be able to kick people when they're down all that stuff I think it makes it a very big change on the strategy of fighting but I don't know but I'm not fighting now you know I don't know what fighters now think maybe they have a different mind about it they're like you know what I don't when they get soccer kicked when I'm on my force okay I guess you know it's your your the guys fighting now so they get to make the I would hope they would have a say in what rules are playing in yeah not convinced a soccer kick is any harder than a head kick or that someone's been you know training for their whole lives I think that's the power behind it might be the same it's not even the head kick even harder right when they're standing so I'm not convinced one is harder than the other I think a kick standing is harder than yeah stopping the fight not letting the guy kick you know right I think those type of things like make a big difference like the downed kicks because you see a lot of people when they get in trouble they go in there forest they cover up well you can't hit the back of the head and you can't really kick her knee on my head neither you have to play a submission game or or expect I rep to stop the fight when you're hitting them on the sides you know even though you're not really you know you might not be hurting them as much I and it kind of makes less jujitsu in that match too right if you were allowed to soccer kick somebody when they're on their fours you wouldn't stay on your force because you know I'm in a dangerous spot I would instead what pull guard alright because that's what people did traditionally you know like I wouldn't go into Judaism and go Oh take my back from the beginning like I would never do that but in fighting people will do that so I I think little rules like that make a huge impact on how the strategy of a fight would go down oh yeah you're always been adjust to whatever rules are present to you if they say okay you cannot punish your right to hand your power hand gonna be your left yeah you know no questions about you're gonna train so much that your left hand gonna be super strong you know and this for every single sport you know and that's why I don't like so much the in jiu-jitsu now there's every single organization tries to do something that oh yeah we do I'm DJ at rules but we do not allow double PO we do I do their fruits but we do not give advantage we do actually have fruits but we allow heel hooks we do object you have rules but we do but we allow neck cranks you know so every single of the single one of those roofs have a reason to be there and then if you cannot even write your own rules dude you know for this sport is much easier when it's just one set of rules you know at least a main set of rules but in jiu-jitsu is so much stuff outside of that you know and change even like metamoris rules you know submission only is a completely different fight you know when I fought Solo in a moment there he he passing Mountain me right so I'm not saying that he could never pass my god or I could never mount me but if we are having that fight in a tournament or in a tournament that it did not give the did that I have to submit him or get a draw I would never go for a bicep slicer in the guy who have the arm so short like him you know but because the submission only you know and and it will not cost me nothing if I miss the submission then I went for a bad submission and then the guy ending passing and mounting yeah you know but they will not do ever do that it makes no sense to attack a guy like that with that attack and then the rules the rules play a big role in how the fights gonna gonna take place you know yeah and you and then people were trying to compare that well this was a I beat yet thing you would have been here a loss but like you said then I wouldn't have done that right so it's exactly yeah it's not an apples to apples comparison it's two different rule sets I think the more these rules split I know Robert you've said there's a bunch of times like with it now the Eddie Bauer type of rule sets you have athletes now that they're used to training so specialize on one each that they can't cross over to another one because they're totally unprepared for it all right so I think for me I always like seeing the purest form of fighting you know so when we have ruled like to me that when you have something where the rules are so niche they start moving away from the realism of fighting it to me it takes away their appeal all right like I find like I have lived for MMA the down cake to me is a huge pool way because it changes a lot of how the fight would be played you know so when people specialize on that I feel like when they actually go in and a street fighter is good thing they might prepare this those poorly thing you know this is a safe place you know like no it's a really bad spot so that's my takeaway I have a story about custom grace fighting i MMA MMA fight and then at that time they used to fight on the stadiums you know and then he any fight in a place that the forest concrete you know so turns out then the guy put him down so he he earlier have understood that is a concrete and he could hurt the guy who's in the floor right so when he got down he kicked the knee to the guy backwards even also his legs scratched on his knee scratch on the floor the guy position again he kick again he come back he kick again the guy had to stop the fight you know so if you're thinking about today you allowed to do that but it will not do any difference kicking the knee of somebody inside the Octagon but if then you are talking about the street you know and then the guy is with his knees on the asphalt or on the concrete so then you could hurt somebody just kicking the knee and that way you know so things stick shapes in different circumstances you know sometimes you think god this is relevant I'm never going to be able to use that and then he's a circumstance that did that's a pliable you know that's pretty clever the one I seen you know all that Atul I forgot who did it and they were fighting in the ropes and the guy's head was sticking in between the ropes and he grabbed a rope ever heard the guy's neck and choked them with it I think you can behind the concrete dragon it needs that's pretty smart I would have find that out of that yeah I've heard once I don't know if this is true or not but the knee on belly position it's not a judo position in judo they don't teach knee on belly right so where didn't young Tommy come from and old volley to toe days because they were always fighting if not on concrete like on a hard surface a very good position your damage from would be a knee on belly because if you put your knees on concrete it hurt so you put a knee on belly so you can drop some bombs right so I don't know if this is right I've no way of verifying this but the knee on belly would have come from an MMA tradition and not from judo look that's the thing I sometimes I talk with friends from the old school and they said oh yeah because we get three points it used to be three points for knee on the belly three points off knee on the belly because you can drop a bunch of bombs on the face of the guy but what happen is when you last time you see somebody put the knee on the belly on the MMA I'm referring to a period where the level was nowhere near where the UFC is yeah in the day people that don't know how to shrimp in bridge and like get off the bottom a knee on belly against someone who's clueless is what I'm saying belly the dominant position today the problem is on the rules they damage the knee on the belly because before when we start you have to put the knee across the belly of the guy that used to be shin on the belt not me you have to put your whole leg there now you can put just the tip of your knee on the side of the guy and then knee on the belly becomes just a tool to score up two points or advantage you know so it's a complement of the past the guard passing you past the guard then you go for the knee on the belly we're going to get one advantage or you're gonna get two points but you don't have to commit with the knee on the belly so if you are not committed if you are in a position that you're just there for the points and really not trying to attack you're never going to be good enough to be able to put that into a MMA fight or into developed from that point because water was create on the knee on the belly 20 years ago 30 years ago is the same thing that people do from the knee on the belly today what new technique you saw from the knee on the belly recently you know I cannot score digits out of all points scored in jiu-jitsu the one that is scored the least amount of times is knee on belly which speaks volumes about how it's dishing it really is I just think it's interesting it's the one position it doesn't come from judo it's the one position that we teach them Brazilian jiu-jitsu that doesn't find its origins in judo everything else everything else can be fine found in judo all right guys I really gotta go man I got another call here blowing up I I got some other commitments become free dough you're not only a role model you're a legend in the sport you're a good friend thank you so much for giving us your time I'm sure we will do this again at some point and you are welcome to join the ADCC masters club here in Las Vegas currently it's me and David Avila animal bob knows he's gonna show up at some point - we got a masters club going on here in Vegas you're more than welcome to join masters of old people or masters as wise people let people know where they can find you online if they want to follow you or there's anything you want to plug sure you can find me at computer BJJ and pretty much all the social media I have I'm in Chicago or in Bloomingdale I'm 40 minutes away from Chicago if you guys are on the area please stop by I hope next year I come back me and Philippa courser always have our Brazilian black belt camp that we've been doing for so many years and not even like to think how for how long we've been doing that because that makes me feel very old and I have a channel on YouTube that nobody watches my videos I have it's just me and my mom watching those either so it's you guys one day are doing nothing put completed BJJ on YouTube you're gonna see a channel you're probably gonna be one of the first people to ever saw that technique make sure to thank you computer and I love you guys thank you [Music]