BTG 43 - IBJJF Heel Hooks

[Music] hey guys what's going on i'm david avalon here with my co-host robert drysdale back for another episode of breaking the guard first of all i have to thank robert once again so in case you guys are wondering what breaking the guard is really about it's nothing to do with the podcast it's just dave's way of getting me to come over and help help him move heavy stuff exactly that that piano was costing me for the record like that at one time holy [ __ ] no all good fun though um dave what's new man well uh finished the first in-home camp here in vegas last week yep that was a lot of fun uh we had a smaller group because we got a lot of people cancelled in the last minute of course and yeah some people just couldn't come because travel restrictions so but it worked out really nice you know we had uh a good group of guys and some people ask me what's the average age of the camps i said this one old right yeah it was all people are 50 plus 52 53 57 there was a and we have one year we got joey coming in obviously he was like 21. he was the baby of the year he messed up the average he messed up the average yeah yeah but you know what i it's really uh i was really happy to see that as because these guys even though when i was a kid you said you're 50 you're like oh you're old yeah right and these are moving great man yeah they're still moving i think 50 year olds are healthier than they've ever been before you know surgery diet everything has improved right medicine has improved so life quality of life improves with it i think grappling though like jiu-jitsu the jiu-jitsu world in general is very unusual um in that you know there's more longevity to it like you don't see what's the average age in any wrestling room and my guess would be the average age is what 19 maybe for wrestlers yeah like it's something like that like you're going to start in high school and by the time you're out of college or you know there's some clubs out there with older men do practice but they're exceptions they're very rare yeah i think the average age in a jiu jitsu room is going to be 30 35 maybe i don't know if they're 30 plus i think 90 plus i think for sure yeah and i think one of the reasons is there's less impact like you couldn't spar muay thai live all the time you kill yourself wrestling judo they're all rough on the body because of impact right grappling has less impact so i think there's that's i mean there's still injuries i don't know but i think the longevity is a little higher the more welcoming of people yeah and that age bracket and you can also it's a lot more tailor-made right if you want to start from your feet you can if you want to start from your back you can if you want to do like a slower roll you know true it's possible i can't slowly suplex you right there yes no you can't no you're going or it's so true yeah i never thought it that way but you're right like you can't you can't be a good striker or a good wrestler without being explosive yeah you can't do it in slow motion like it's just i mean unless you're like kale sanderson you might be able to wrestle in slow motion still take people down but for the most part it's not very common yeah in jiu jitsu you can be really slow and still be really good yeah exactly you can set up traps and you can even just with good grips control people pressure and walk into a submission like baby step them in you know you can't really do that in wrestling or or striking like you said you can't slow down yeah yeah you know we had a guy i always talk about this guy locolo in my gym he's 350. he can't really spar with guys who are lightweights because his jab is like someone else's yeah right you know you know when i was sparr you know i'm like the heaviest guy but i'm not light either i don't spar with smaller people i always felt at a disadvantage i was like rob you're heavier like yeah but heavy is only an advantage if i can actually throw hard yeah if i'm holding my punches back i'm slow now and they're faster than me yeah so sparring was smaller guys was actually i was at a disadvantage yeah you know because their advantage is speed and they're allowed to move as fast as they want that's never bad but if i hit them as hard as i can i'm an [ __ ] yeah so it's it was always difficult to find that that balance and striking yeah i've felt that many times because for some reason i'm not i'm not a big guy especially compared to you but like in miami where i was training at they were all like 140s and under oh yeah yeah so i don't know about sparring i'm fighting a guy that's 120 or whatnot and like you said you're holding back and then they're but they're not they're going glasses yeah these big guys are knocking my head off i'm like no i'm not yeah yeah it's so true eating the cat cakes and they're yeah they're going to town and you're like you know 50 it sucks and then if you go balls to the wall of course then you're a jerk yeah jerk yeah um man what else dave um we haven't talked in a while oh but the big news that you had brought up earlier was that the ibjs is now allowing heel hooks and reaping i am so happy about that i think that was the greatest decision they have ever made in a long time because you can't limit the arsenal man you can't close it and that's official now right it's official um well they i mean we've been talking about it for quite some time enough participating a couple of these meetings of like discussing and it was unanimous like they asked all the coaches because normally when they make decisions like this they're not they're actually pretty open to debate they're more open than people think they are you just gotta be reasonable when you approach them don't approach them with angers like hey man why don't you guys do this yeah and present your arguments in an intelligent way and they'll listen so basically they approached like some of the head coaches in the sport and it was like 99 of them were in favor the only guy who was against it was comprito [Laughter] sorry to throw him under the button i love him but i guess like dude like this is this it's because he comes he's more of i think he's watching out for i mean the injury thing is a scary thought like i get that because it's a short lever and it's not like you're popping your arm you pop your knee it's a different kind of injury you popped your elbow before it's nothing you're back on the mats in two weeks two weeks like it's not that big of a deal pop your knee on a heel hook or a toe hold the other thing is that the toe hold is remarkably similar to the heel yeah it's the same lever it's a it's a rotational motion on the knee and the ankle so it's a spiral right like i i was still fighting strange that they allowed the toe hold but not the heel hook i never understood that either because i've seen devastating to hold injuries like one of my students he he's the one who got told holds taken out of nagas it's enrico coco yeah back when he was a teenager it was like his first night guy thinking it was in a little guy's name yeah he was like 12 years old it was a kid but they allowed toehold back then and he got the kid a toehold and the kid was wearing wrestling shoes which didn't help him and you know whack and the foot just pointed the wrong way like oh yeah it's yeah it's nasty yeah so like i to me when i see tolls i always think of that i'm like man you get a lot more leverage on a toehold if yeah if you're on top of it man you can really rip and like the injury argument is like a good argument but there has been an educational process and this is large i think the submission only movement and the professional events are largely responsible for this it has been an educational process in the community uh and where people learn how to tap before it hurts it's not like a choke you can hold it out an extra second sometimes you know like you know like other an arm bar you have plenty of time to make up your mind before you tap right it's a long lever and you'll hook you don't have a lot it's like a wrist lock you have to tap you verbally tap it normally and i think there's been an educational uh um process that's been going on in the last like five years right since they've been very popular and people they're seeing that the injury ratio is not that high as long as you have educated competitors because like when's the last time you saw i mean it does happen like the vinnie with like uh craig thing but vinnie's been incredibly stubborn he could have tapped before oh i didn't feel him like you can't tell me you felt no pressure on that foot man you felt something yeah right you just decided to hold back and you know what let's see i've never thought before i'm not going to tap no sort of thing yeah um but yeah i think it's i think that if we educate people we teach them how to tap i'm in favor of the hill hooks being legal in the ghee i don't see why not yes just to be clear for people don't know this is only nogi and it's only i think was it black belt brown and black and black not monsters yeah we don't have white belts throwing heel hooks so which i think is a good first step i think that's not you know baby steps right no i mean even i think down the road i'm when i mean in my school yeah we do teach heel hooks to white belts but there's a lot of education education a lot of warning and you know i think competition wise it's not needed there's a lot to work on you know i mean and it you know because if you're competing maybe that's going to be your first competition as a white belt as a blue belt and you might have an ego thing and the heel hook doesn't really care about your ego no it's going to destroy it yeah so i i can let it slide like let it go until brown bell to you know where at that point you should know if you don't change you shouldn't be a black belt like you don't understand you know you have a at least here's the other advantage i mean some people are going to like look at this like oh i'm worried about my knees now in competition you know we have to look at longevity of the sport like the arsenal like the the the plethora of moves has to stay open the cannon has to stay open right once you close it you know and i've made this case and i i don't want to know if you got onto the book but i talk about this in the book that was judo's mistake they limit the canon and when they do that all they're doing is creating a space for something else to exist that's all you're doing right so you have to keep the canon as broad as possible right in order to keep the martial art very eclectic very diverse and and willing to absorb new techniques which brazilians are surprisingly willing to like if you look at like how many wrestling moves translate to bjj all of them except the suplex it's the only and you can't suplex you can shoot it on the side you can't on the neck that's the only one that's illegal yeah but how many bjj moves don't translate into wrestling for example so like the canon is very broad it's just that we have to make sure that it stays that way and we don't close it yeah no i agree and especially if you see the recent trend in you know world-class competitions it's like like like log so if we're going to lead that out in the biggest i guess amateur venue possible that's a big disservice right because now you're making a big difference between the leagues and i'm sure ibgf doesn't want to be seen as oh that's like yeah that's not the real thing the real thing is you know the submission only or adcc or whatever i think by adding that in they bring themselves up to par now where okay now we're we're all playing with the same moves yeah you know so i i think that's a good move and it actually keeps the the community broad and big what happens is once again not to get too nerdy on history here but that's what happened in brazil they could no longer agree on the rule set and once that happens guess what you have a split that's essentially that's how splits occur like we cannot agree on how we practice so long as their agreement the sport remains unified i think it's better for everyone because you know we want it to be practiced by more people if you believe that it is healthy lifestyle if you believe it's good for you you know you want more people to practice the more organized it is the bigger it gets the more people practicing you know like we i mean i think jiu jitsu is on his way to become the most practiced martial art in the world like i hope that happens i don't think it is yet some people think it is i'm not sure i think it still might be judo but you know i think we're on our way it's definitely well at least from the states it's the most popular on its own you know and uh i think by mma in itself obviously is the most publicized correct public face and a lot of people correlate mma to jiu jitsu now so you know that's obviously been a big win for the jesuit jiu jitsu has benefited from mma more than any other martial art for sure like i think wrestling did too i think there's been an increase i i don't know but my guess is that they're more kids wrestling now than before the ufc that'd be my guess i i would i would agree in certain senses i'm not sure just not because from a public perception but because of laws like title ix not really destroyed wrestling programs okay but i'm thinking back like a decade ago i'm not sure how that's happening now but definitely there's a lot more respect given to wrestling yeah i know back in the day people y'all wrestling oh you're just some weird dudes wrestling with wheelchairs yeah oh that guy could hurt me and they weren't fighters before yeah they were not they were not considered fighters or martial artists which they are but we associate a term martial art with something asian right like everything that is western is not um you know one reason why that is and this is my suspicion don't quote me on it is that you know the the west right europe the americas they became um their feudal age ended a long time ago so we went to this they went they went they acquired firearms much much before japan did so japan by holding off their feudal age was extended until the 1800s so that martial culture was very very present in japan where these martial arts existed in europe like there are there was grappling in europe before but once you invented firearms why are soldiers going to keep practices one of those things will just pick up a gun it makes a lot more sense right where is japan because their feudal age was extended into the 1800s i think they kept the practice of a martial culture alive in a way that the west did it and wrestling survived but i mean that that's it like rusty survived and it you know i think wrestling's only exception i can't think of like these martial arts existed in western countries it's not like only japan had martial arts you know but i think it might have to do with the fact that japan wasn't you know open to the world until late in the 1800s no it makes a lot of sense and i think well there's a lot of skills required with handling firearms and whatnot but i think the level of discipline in training martial arts is probably very different especially especially since firearms were relatively new so the level proficiency would have probably been way below and yeah the tools itself it's very different than it is now yeah because you have guys who like john wicks or whatnot that there's all sorts of skills that you can have with firearms that can make it a martial art in itself just handling it yeah but i think back then when you're dealing with a musket oh yeah it'd be far more efficient like i would not be scared of a guy with a musket like i'm sorry like i mean you have to be far away not know far away you can't hit me because the accuracy on those things are horrible you know yeah it's it's pretty crazy seeing how like if you see people loading it and stuff it's wild but uh yeah that's interesting about japan though being yeah because it's unusual their their feudal age was extended longer than any other country in the world you know so maybe that played a role because a feudal mentality is a very marshall mentality feudal lords fighting for you know the cost and conflict it's the same thing in europe it was not so different not the same but different but they were constantly in state of warfare you know because you know a bunch of little small kingdoms battling in the case of japan you know lords but i think that probably created a a martial culture that lived well into the 18th century 19th century sorry um yeah but um yeah going back to the heel hook thing switching gears a little bit going back to our original topic i think that this is i wonder how the jiu jitsu world is going to react to it if a lot of the people that were boycotting ibjf we're going to continue to do that that's the only question if they're going to be a hold out they're going to be like i am not we're going to stick to this right here and we're not going to be absorbed or because that's what the graces did like we're not changing right if it's going to be one of those things or is it going to be yeah it just makes a lot more sense to absorb to be absorbed right because at the end of the day you know say what you want about ibjf but they are at the forefront of the growth of jiu jitsu around the world there's no organization in the grappling world like adccc doesn't come close in my opinion as far as promoting the sport even though the technical level is higher than ibjf in my opinion right but as far as promotion of the sport i think for a sport to grow for wrestling wrestling needs a fila um you know judo needed its cortalcon like jiu jitsu needs its ibjf and you need my disagreements with them which are many i think that was a very positive step in in that direction yeah i mean if you look at the ibdf schedule of events it's just slam packed oh like sometimes like three a weekend yeah and they're all over the world you know it's happening a lot so like you said they're like you said like or not they are the the base of jiu jitsu yeah you know so without them there you would lose a lot of players and you would lose that worldwide presence for sure and the other thing is that competition is what creates us makes a sport competition is super important man like people don't realize how important competing is even if most people don't compete what competition does is that it creates this conflict between rivals right you have this this friction like i want to beat you you want to be me and it's like an arms race right what does that do to the technical level of the sport if there's no competition what happens what's the incentive to really that's what happens a lot of martial arts aren't competitive they become so theoretical there's no validity to actual you know you can't implement that in real life and i think that by doing this like by having tournaments in africa by having tournaments in in asia but having tournaments all over the americas what you do is you create these pockets of of arms race like all these armors going on all these different countries and that right there elevates the level and it makes it engaging too like when you're in competition mode man it's fun like being in that world like am i gonna fight next weekend am i gonna beat that guy you're super nervous the guy beat you last term you gotta outsmart him this tournament i think that keeps so many competitors so many practitioners motivated to stay in the gym i think what you said about the technical level is very true i am myself and my brother most of our learning early on was done in competition because we didn't have a sensei or or a master teaching us it was me and him so whenever we competed we filmed it yeah using vhs tape you know mini cam whatever and then we would film it after the match would watch it and we look at the things we did right and then what our opponents were doing to us if it was working okay how do we integrate that into our game and now with the advent of the internet that makes it so much more powerful because if you think back in the day even in our time i wouldn't know what would happen in the australian trials right they would say oh some you know whoever won that would be it yeah now we get to see how they won how and pause it and you know yeah oh crap man that guy pulled off some slick stuff you know uh so i think that has probably and it's happening to every industry i would imagine raising the level up significantly because we could learn from all across the world in an instant you know i i think that's because now i have people you have someone like joey and yeah kids are an animal he's 21 years old he's super technical he's so wrong and he's so strong too he's just taking everybody's back no like crazy and he's stupid he's like he's super skinny like oh i can bend this guy in half though he's strong holy [ __ ] yeah but that's crazy that at 21 you know i was nowhere near that level oh no no one was yeah the 21 now it says like wrestler smash and and it's funny because you know people don't always appreciate that because i agree like i watch you know tape someone sent me a video of me competing as a brown belt the other day competing against him he had the video and he posted it i reposted like oh man i have zero footage of me competing i didn't film anything right i mean if you look online you'll find like mma a little bit of jiu jitsu but like blue purple brown nothing and i'm like oh man it's not too bad you know it's okay pretty good but i'm like comparing the brown belts today i'm like nah i don't think i would have won yeah you know like it's just but it's not it's not a discredit to me or a credit to younger generations it is a it is a testament of the growth of the art like you have to remember this like people i think it was um i think we talked about this in the keynote podcast like you always said like yeah hixon wouldn't win a purple tournament today i'm like i agree yeah i don't think you would but that's not an insult to hixson and neither is it a compliment to keenan's purple belt right it is a compliment to jiu jitsu and its growth you know that's normal you're going to put a swimmer from the 1980s in a swimming pool with michael phelps and you think like who are we kidding here of course he's going to lose you know but that's good that's how the sport should be involved you want the sport to be fossilized in the 1980s and this is what we have and it's not going to get better than this like we peaked in the 1990s are you kidding me yeah is that what you want you want the sport okay we peaked in the 1980s and you think that's good for the sport come on you know that was the beginning of our history man like i think i and i write this in the book like the history jiu jitsu really begins in 94. before that they were doing judo they don't like it but it's true it was just modified you like jiu-jitsu as we know it got sophisticated after ibd jf that's when competition raised the bar you can watch footage of these guys going 1980s what were they doing they were good grapplers but that was basically what they were doing basic judo even if you look at early ufc's i mean we're talking 93 and up that's super basic stuff very basic like i go i've had a time i've fantasized about this more times than i can count on the time machine if i could go back to 93 with my skills i would have won the ufc so many times oh it would be no contest i'd be like i would beat everyone there's like voices turning people up i mean the voices just a game was super basic but yeah it was just all that it was way better than everyone everyone else was doing yeah yeah i remember yeah i didn't learn like a homoplata until like 2000 something yeah like the first jujitsu i learned was also super basic it was like arm bar i mean i learned heel hooks neck cranks and all the the dirty stuff yeah but it's like i learned all the curse words yeah that's when you learn a new language you always learn bad words and then you learned like you know nouns yeah i was like learning crucifixes and all these crazy that's why oh you're a catch wrestling guy like no i mean you just but you you are an example there's a lot of people like you i think you and your brother the difference is you guys did really well in competition whereas that first generation of practitioners in the us they were learning from vhs tapes as well like there were so i mean how many times have i heard that story of the guy who just gets in a buy some mats in his garage with his buddies they're watching vhs tapes and next thing you know that guy is promoted to blue and then brazilian comes visit two years later gives them a purple belt and those are like the very first generation of american practitioners they were they were winging it if they were borrowing from wrestling maybe or judo or cash wrestling but for the most part a sport when it's new anywhere people are kind of winging it you are your own coach and that was the same case in brazil when you know when when when carlos and those guys were were creating what we now call brazilian jiu jitsu and they were winging it a lot it's not like they had a vast experience with anyone really a lot of it was just like what's that book over there oh that looks like a good move added to the curriculum right what was that move from luther over there oh that that was really good that works even capoeira they're borrowing right yeah i think we still do that it's just that jiu jitsu has gone so big now you don't have to vote fish for moves and other martial arts you can just watch floor grappling and you know pause rewind and watch again what those blue belts are doing it's like i mean there's tons of innovation going on at the blue belt level you know imagine the black so i think it's a testament of the growth of the sport like i i people should not give themselves too much credit younger generations should not give themselves too much credit because they didn't do much they got it all digested you know previous generations do the hard work you got to give the privilege generations their credit for laying the groundwork right and i think that's where this conversation gets a little lost you know new jiu jitsu is bad old school is useless and it's i think they're you know it's it's the same thing it's just one trajectory you can't have one without the other one you can't have one without the other exactly i'll be curious to see how the first few tournaments go once they start doing nogi heel hooks because my what i'm going to picture is that right now since we only see them in sub only and acc there's not as high as the frequency of this competition so like we were talking about there's not as much time for people to innovate or to like explore these positions in competition but once we start doing it ibjf there's gonna be a lot more people doing it just because the tournaments are bigger and more varied i mean there there's more of them going on so i wonder if the defense level is going to rise up yeah or if the offense is going to go up like i'm wondering like because some people like oh is the leg lock game gonna is here to stay or is it gonna change i think it's never gonna go away but you remember when baron bolo started yeah maybe 10 years ago whatever you know it was a fad and everyone this is like the and then for and then after there's a minute there were like no one could stop powerful maintenance is bearing bolo and then all gusta mendes came in like wait a second this is how you do it and he stopped them every single time shut them down every single day beats them twice right and i think that that's um just like these things come and go i was a member of the minute there where people were like i remember people first started playing spider guard like he was like i knew three spider guard sweeps i'm like man i know real jiu jitsu man my jiu jitsu is like you know three sweeps but it was it was something that was revolution at the time because no one was you know people weren't using it efficiently heel hooks fall into that category there's gonna be they're gonna be neutralized they're not gonna go away just like a rear naked choke never went away people know not to give the back but these people still get caught yeah but it's not going to be a surprise surprise i have no idea what's going on i think one reason why logan is a compliment to something like laughlin for example is that you know he was doing something that a lot of his opponents need to see were not doing he he had raised the bar in that particular fight in a way you know that patriarchy wasn't or mohammed ali was it because you could see they're calm i mean i know what he's thinking you guys should be panicking right now like get the hell out of here you can see they're almost like relaxed because their knee is free yeah but they didn't expect as long as they could bring that knee back into that that you know that knee behind that knee line because he had raised the bar there so much in that fight but you think that's going to happen next at ecc i seriously doubt it because everyone's got their eyes where watching what he's doing hit everyone in his division and in the open now too watch okay what is this guy doing they're going to study it are they going to make the same mistakes i can still see people getting caught is it going to happen with the same frequency as it did last adcc i highly doubt that because the tendency is for the the defense to catch up to the offense right and then it it's an arms race and it never really ends but i think that is it's going to be it's going to be like bearing bowls never went away but they're not as unstoppable as they were they were for a minute there yeah and you know now you're brought up something like lachlan it is interesting now that you have the active competitors who are releasing instructionals on the stuff that they're doing because a part of me has to think like man that's kind of like giving away your secrets in a sense yeah i know when i struggled that a little bit like i couldn't release the kimora trap system in 2009 and i didn't because i wanted to use it i wanted to use it in 2011. that didn't work out well for me and then i just forget let me just get it out there it turned out better because there was more people on the internet so i made the launch better because 2009 still wasn't as big you know as far as like mma people on the internet but nowadays uh man like you're gonna have everybody watching your stuff but from what i can tell that everybody's showing you know a lot of the cutting-edge stuff it's got to be a conundrum for him because you go i can keep this to myself and slow down the rate on which these people will pick up because like now you have to go through the wars that you went through at the gym to get to that level because it will get to that level and there's no doubt they're going to get that level the question is how long is it going to take uh and not only that they're watching you do it and they can pause and watch which is not the same as an instruction where you're giving away all the details yeah but you'll still pick up a lot from watching like i i watch that of him doing it to that because it's essentially the same move he does to all three of them in adcc yeah and i was like i have a good idea of what he's doing right and i'm even able to pull it off in the gym myself i know i haven't watched his instruction i haven't asked him but i know if i sit down with him and i say man what are you doing here i know he's going to drop like four or five jewels on me he's like oh okay i had no idea oh okay got it oh that's what you're doing okay got it so what you do when you introduce an instructional and you give away the true gems what happens is you're just speeding the process on which a competition is going to be learning so you're making that a lot you know you're you're short in the period that would normally take to absorb that move but at the same time how much money has it made from it yeah you know so and not only that if you don't release the dvd someone else will for sure so one of your students is going to say fu one of those days and they're just going to take all your [ __ ] and i'm not going to mention names but we know that has happened many times in the jujitsu community where someone takes credit for someone else's developments right and um yeah money talks man at the end of the day you know it's the way i see it is one you have to make your living when you can like you said and nowadays especially like the opportunities are are pretty vast as far as there's a much bigger scale now on the internet uh for like all night especially the martial arts world now i remember before the martial arts world online was like sure dog jiu jitsu gear and mixed martial arts.com oh man i can take it further back remember nhb any speaker yeah nhb gear yeah that was that's way before sure doc that's like yeah sure dogs yeah i think hb gear there was another one i used to go way back in 99 a form i used to go on was it an hp gear there were others there's like two of them and hp gear was that big it was one of the the first ones and mixedmartialarts.com i think yeah or mma tv i think i missed that oh that one this is a big one too those were the two big ones at the time and sure dog was coming up at this around the same time so remember those three forms were like the presence of online and that's where everybody was talking and that's when bulletin boards were popular because social media wasn't invented yet so if you wanted to chat with people you were going there and you put in your post and then you're waiting for someone to respond yeah you know so that was the thing they were engaging like it was like a trap yeah you get stuck and sucked into those they they were like on social media at the time yeah exactly [ __ ] i feel old yeah it's a predecessor of social media with bulletin boards yeah you know uh so yeah i mean now those things are non-existent pretty much yeah everything's social media but at the same time you can see stuff everywhere so i think if you're a martial artist competing you might as well sell yourself because you said people are going to see it anyways now i guess you have full grappling and you have you know ufc fight pass your stuff is being shown and people are going to pick it apart you know if you're competing so yeah in this day and age it makes more sense just to let the cat out about yourself i don't think you can stop monetizing and like i said if he doesn't do it he knows perfectly well someone else will and not only that like i think it's kind of point i mean there's something intelligent you know and not having your opponents learn from you but there's also something very noble about giving it away to your opponents because you're improving on the sport a and i don't want shitty opponents why would you want shitty opponents do you want to win easy yeah i mean what does that easy victory do for you like for your spirit like what does it do you makes me feel good i don't i don't value my easy wins yeah i mean if i name the people like if i can give you like 10 names that i've beaten in my life the ones that come to mind are always the good ones yeah i don't remember that guy that i tapped in 15 seconds and never saw him again yeah yeah you know so in a way like you know it's you're doing yourself a favor when you improve on your opponent and you're servicing the sport as a whole yeah you know and i ultimately you're gonna serve yourself in the sense that as you said if i had like this killer leg lock game that nobody knew about and we're like in the stone ages nobody has cameras or anything like that i could just destroy everybody with leg locks yeah and what's that going to do to me my game is going to stale your ego will feel great you're going to feel like really yeah might feel good yeah my ego will be through the roof but then my skill set will just diminish because i won't need to get better like i could just it would be like a man with a gun and then in the stone ages yeah i'll be the alphabet [Laughter] you would just be a crappy hunter too yeah because you're just slowly relying on that one it's like when hunters give themselves way too much credit for killing a deer like today with like like the rifles we have now it's like all right that's cool and everything and i i'm not against it i'd probably give it a go one day but man imagine the stone age had to do with a spear or bow and arrow how much harder that would be how much closer you have to get to the animal really man that's like some legit skill right there guys like joe rogan bow and arrow hunting elk which is that's badass that's pretty badass you got to get close you got to get really close and there's a chance they can charge you and stuff and yeah i gotta have some risks though man like you know for sure that's that's where the merit comes in is it's it's proportion to the risk yeah it's an adventure for them so i don't know if i would want to i definitely want to hunt i never have i want to i think it's i'm not i'm not one of those that goes like i'll never kill out like nah man i think it's it's not something i do just sort of i mean i would obviously want to eat the animal afterwards not just 100 percent yeah that's the main motive yeah i mean honestly i think i've been doing it more because i can buy meat i know there's there's got to be a merit into killing it yourself that i don't get when i buy it at walmart but it's not the meat itself it's i think it's the adventure of doing something that was part of our existence for 99.9 of our existence that's how we got by and all of a sudden farming just kind of blew that out of the water you know and then all of a sudden we're like oh we're buying food now which is which is a new strange concept when you you know when you think in historical terms um i would like that experience i want that experience even fishing which is not even close it's not nowhere near as manly as bohan no it really isn't but it's still fun like there's something about fishing that makes it very special and it's not just sitting quiet by the water with your buddy it's more i don't know there's some there's there's a connection between you and it's direct there's no intermediary you know there's no one in between me and the food i have to fish if i want to eat yeah or i can just go in the car and buy you know grab a bag of cheetos that works too but it was more fun if you actually catch something when i went to french polynesia with jamie the tahiti and i think it was in moria they had us in a place i think oh you guys want to go fishing like yeah let's go fishing and they just brought us out you know like 10 minutes away from the shore and then they gave us it was like a little wooden block with nylon and a hook i'm like okay it's the fishing rod and you say all right just they have hermit crabs you just put the hermit crab in there the bait throw it out we caught like ten nine fish like in 30 minutes wow and there was it was all like red snappers yeah just pull them up it was like very little resistance i'm like this is not that funny it's not that if it's too easy it's not like jamie's like oh i know like this is easy i'm like yeah this is normally not how it's it's not how you have to like sit there whole day yeah maybe you catch some flowers and you get one catch you know if you're lucky i mean this was just like throwing them in and pulling up the line like literally it was twice where i threw it in and i had to pull it out right away because there's so many fish and it was such a like you know there's nobody there you know so these fish are not ready for this game but yeah it takes away a lot of fun out of it you know even though it was good for eating that we don't have to wait i will say this like it's it's the opposite is even worse you know like the opposite like sitting there for eight hours and not catching anything i've done that too so um but for the most part like i yeah i'm with it's like it's both like you want to grind it's like you know not similar knowledge i don't play video games but i used to when i was a kid the game is too easy it's not fun yeah but it's not fun if it's too hard either like there were some of those prince of persia prince of persia you ever played that game yeah yeah that was impossible and then nintendo you couldn't beat that game man i was like i'm not done with this thing i played for like 15 minutes like i'm out because it was so hard it was like one of the first games i remember playing my grandfather he had a bunch of computer games and and when we're in venezuela and when he earned venezuela in the golden ages he didn't go outside it's too dangerous so we had a lot of hide-and-go-seek and a lot of video games and nintendo's because you go outside you're getting shot and mugged or whatnot so i think prince of persia was one of the first computer games to remember playing yeah and people playing now they're like oh the 3d thing like no no nintendo version yeah no mine was even older it was like i think it was a 286 computer but you know two-dimensional little block character and you have like 60 minutes to finish this it's gotta be one of the oldest games ever like that goes that's like pac-man old man isn't it like it goes way back i mean not pac-man old but pong obviously i think it's the first one that ever came out it's like 70s though yeah right but this was uh i think late 80s so it's like just before super mario yeah yeah yeah but uh i remember playing that but yeah and that was a fun game although it is very frustrating because you can die a lot and then you yeah you're also time limited yeah that's something i think people who play video games now don't understand like because you have like saves and you can always restore where you were oh you're everyone's a winner yeah everyone's a winner yeah the modern era that's what i've noticed because i watched like the nephews play and you know a few games i've played you can always come back to where you were and it goes back into what you're saying with struggle where those earlier games were a little bit more rewarding in the sense that they were they were very challenging but if you got to finish you're like yeah it was and he couldn't i don't know like i beat super mario than the original nintendo but it took me years to do it it was years man so i could beat that game because you have three lives yeah yeah and the game goes on for like i don't know eight hours you got to play that thing whatever it is and then you can only die three times you oh twice right yeah or something like that yeah and then i think you could gain a life here and there you get a one-up or whatever but like but there was like almost like a level uh there's a focus you know i think games are too maybe too rewarding that's maybe that's why they're so addicting too is because it's non-stop reward yeah it's non-stop you're a winner you know everyone's a winner and you don't have to be that good to be a winner in the game anymore one of the the last games i played that was really i thought was really interesting was that it's called aliens versus predator and they had like a super hard mode which is you can't you only die and if you die once you lose yeah and the levels were like longer they're like 20 30 minutes but it was like a horror game so i think i remember that now so having to play through the whole round and you might only see it like an alien once but you just don't know when in that 20 minutes it's gonna happen so it was very suspenseful so i thought man this was genius because the game was very simple but because you had that one life yeah you were very like nervous the whole time like you you did everything much more secure versus when you're playing a game like everyone's like don't you like it yeah god mode right yeah and you you can't die you just go reckless like there's zero brain thought into it yeah there's no strategy yeah but the level of stress you perceive is very different so it's funny we're talking a game but it's the same thing with like when you're doing you know martial arts or whatnot when you're fighting somebody who you know you're much better than you start playing around and goofing off and you don't take it as seriously because you know like oh i can handle this guy he's a white male and a black dog but if you put yourself against someone who said like if i'm going against you like okay a game on you know i got to be super cautious i can't like leave anything there the level of stress rises up a lot more and get in that but there's greater challenge if i'm able to hit a technique off it's like damn you know i got something good so going back to the beginning by raising the bar of the whole sport by like selling your instructionals or giving out the secrets you're giving yourself the chance to be rewarded again yeah having because i'm gonna make your leg lock game better if i start giving you all the leg lock secrets and that's gonna force me either a to get a an even better leg lock game to counter what you've come up with or i have to develop other parts of my game and not get there developing getting really good and not getting stuck there yeah you know i think someone like for example uh gordon ryan has shown a lot of versatility in like his game right like everybody first oh he's all leg locks and then he starts walking people like oh and then he started taking it back and now he's like now that he's gotten pretty big he seems just to be arm triangle the hell out of everybody yeah you know so he just had a win over matthias denise yeah very dominant win so and he's another guy who's doing lots of instructions and i think he's made more money now doing the instructionals than fighting for the that's where the the money is but like it uh it's it's a successful model you prove yourself in competition and then you want to show the world what is that you're doing i think that's unique to our sport as well i can't think of maybe i'm not the market so i don't see it but i don't see like football players showing oh the you know this is how as a quarterback i get the best spiral or you know i don't see that mma you don't see it i mean i've taught mma seminars and they're they're flops like if i release an mma instruction which i thought about doing many times i changed my mind halfway through even like writing down a script because i know it's not going to sell many fans don't buy it like it's a fan based sport right football mma jiu jitsu is not only practitioner but there's something about once again the the the the open software mentality it is always being tweaked and no matter how much time we both spend doing kimuras we're going to end up with similar conclusions but not always identical right so what i'm saying so there's always there's always room for like oh this is dave's version this is like so-and-so's version and whatnot and i think that makes it even more appealing because it makes it more complex because the the the question every white belt always asks is what's the best one that's the white bill it's a linear simplistic mentality right like it's a hierarchy best second best third best so this is how i should practice the best and then the second best and that's it right why would you need a fourth one you got three best ones and we know that fighting has nothing to do with any of that like and i think that's one reason why it's so appealing because there's no end to it there's no it's not one of those things where you can go okay i know what the best moves are now well that kind of kills the sport doesn't it yeah if we know what the best sweep is you know it kind of we're done then like there's a best sweep for every moment and that's what makes it so complicated white belts hate that answer because that's the answer i always give them because it's a vague answer right they hate it people have been training for a year or two they begin to understand like okay i know you're talking about now and that's what makes it appealing yeah it's not as simple and if it were to be boring like think about it imagine if you if you had the best takedown like everyone be doing the same thing and it's so predictable and how many where is it where's the growth where's the development like the art like you're you have literally reached a limit to the coding of the art like imagine if you were i'm trying to make an analogy here like you run out of moves in chess like you know you know it the fact that it's infinite makes it more appealing and you know and if you look at like someone like matthils and gordon they're completely different they're both both highly successful they're completely different in terms of style and everyone like look at every adcc champion every ibjf champion yeah they're not i mean you get guys that are somewhat similar like a really good open guard called bringing half fileman is for example both of them known for their open guards they're very different they're both open guard players but they're not they don't play the same way i think that right there is which just broadens the the cannon you know like infinitely and this is why i think jujitsu is one of those sports or it's never going to stop evolving and then you add the lapels now man that's like a whole new pickle i can barely keep up and i slow the hell down bro what are you doing it's like a whole new layer to just been added to jiu jitsu that wasn't there i mean it was but not sophisticated it was very simple very crude i saw a laughing because i'll put a video of him doing a knee cut pass yeah i don't know if you saw it absolutely brutal and i brought him after her this is why i don't do the key he had the whole of the it was just like the seat of the pants yeah as he was passing so it ended up giving this guy like the worst wedgie of life yeah and this is like a black belt competition and he's playing but as he's sliding he's pulling up he's got he's got a rash on his yeah he gave up the frame and he was trying to grab his shorts to the pants and pull him down because the wedgie was hurting so much it was like an atomic wedgie the level beyond i think anybody could probably make it imagine homophobia yeah it must be strong as hell yeah and the guy event tapped like a moment later you know i think oh my god with a choke or whatnot but you see it this guy's hand went down to his pants i'm like yeah hard pass on that thing man it's fun no but yeah it's uh but like yeah it's just has all these layers to it man and i i think it's it's never gonna stop i i i think that there's always there's something about being newly familiar you know just recently introduced to jiu jitsu and really hyped up and like watching on dvd sets let's say let's see your average 22 year old purple belt with a short roll gee right and he feels like i got this i am at the pinnacle of jiu jitsu technique and he believes that because i did too at some point you know yeah and then there's always someone that comes along it is something you never even thought about like completely different like holy cow like that's incredible right like wow like how could i not have thought about that 20 years ago whatever i don't think that ever ends i don't think that ever i don't think there's going to be a time where there's not going to be something new this is why i don't know who i was talking about this the other day was talking about like oh you know innovation innovation i'm like the only thing that is unusual about innovation is that you guys think there's something unusual going on that's what's unusual it's always been the case the innovation you're watching now it's not like it wasn't around 10 years ago it just happened slower right the internet just accelerated it and competition as well so you have competition more competitors more competitions and you have the internet and just like augments that yeah no wonder we're watching it's like a new move every day yeah i wonder at what point do we see a slow down because i do think there's going to come a plateau yeah it's going to come to a point where we've essentially explored all the possible ways of twisting a limb right yeah right now there's still a lot of versatility just because we have so many levers to pull out and both ends so you're seeing people doing you know kimura and then you do mo plata and then there's people doing burrata platas and then the tariko platta like there's all these different yeah i can't keep up with the names by the way yeah like i just recently learned the difference between uh barato plata and to rico players i would see them both and they look somewhat similar but there is a very subtle difference between there's a significant difference between the two but uh i mean at a certain point though we're going to run out of things it's not exactly like uh we're comparing computer technology innovation which we can see as endless because we're updating the hardware right so the hardware is changing it's true so it gives us more room to expand yeah we're sticking with the same hardware yeah bodies the same so we're changing software but at a certain point there's a hardware limitation right like it's true it's very true i can't bend the arm anymore you know or you can't you know rotate the shoulder anymore so we're stuck with what we have i know that the way to modify hardware and like it sounds like science fiction but it is part of discussion at this point is genetically modified humans yeah you know you know everything what's happening to the extent it's happening you ever watch gattaca you ever watch that's one of the best movies of all time like one of my favorite because like it's it's we're not too far away from that we are moving towards genetically engineered humans sure and then when you get that i want my baby to have like the strongest grip i want them to have gorilla glitters they have gorilla grips and a little newborn you have like a five-year-old child with gorilla grip you know and that's not impossible you're looking for a double tendons yeah double tendons like you'd be like vinnie magaliani's like ankles and knees like fine you know i never worried about a foot lock again there was a famous wrestler that was known that had double tendons on his wrists yeah and they would say that when he grabbed your wrist it felt like your wrist was going to break i believe that he was just little and he just had a you know it makes a big difference but yeah those i mean that's coming into play you know and the people who are becoming pharmacists and getting all sorts of creativity 100 supplements and whatnot like but i think genetics is the bigger they'll be more than steroids right i think steroids have a ceiling to what they can do sure because having taken steroids i know for a fact that you know it's there's not like it's not exponential there's it does that and then it doesn't it doesn't do more it does improvement and then it plateaus it can only do so much right but when you're modifying genetics you can actually make us as strong as a gorilla you could do that you can make every single muscle in your body not human like in theory right and i don't think we're 20 years away from that the way technology is expanding i i think we're going to see it in our lifetime and it's going to raise all these ethical issues about sports because now if you're poor you're screwed it's not going to be the weight and the the drug testing and the weight that's going to make things fair it's going to be are you poor or are you rich because if you're rich you can go to a geneticist and modify your children yeah right and then if you're poor you're screwed with a nap it's gattaca right you have a natural born child you're gonna clean toilets for the rest of your life whereas you know if you're genetically engineered and you're gonna win the olympics you're going to be an astronaut and so on it's going to happen like it's kind of a scary world when you think about it like technology has that it's a double-edged sword right it can make the world incredible and it makes it incredibly shitty at the same time i just got done watching that documentary social dilemma have you watched it not yet i made my kids watch it you'd be surprised my kids are like daddy yeah you're right like unless i like even my kids they're seven and nine they're like yeah that's crazy you know because they can they can see that we're all way too into this internet way more than we should you know we're not really equipped to deal with it but it's like you know going back to technology it has that double edge aspect to it you know it can be incredibly helpful exponentially incredibly helpful and exponentially incredibly uh demeaning and and you know in detriment of humanity right well it's a tool that becomes a crutch at a certain point right and i think that's the problem and it's interesting we're bringing genetics into that's a different path right like essentially like are we gonna go more technological become like cyborgs i think so or do we become more genetically enhanced and become like superhumans you know so these are two different i i would prefer the superhuman route because it sounds cooler and there's also at least you're still human yeah at a certain point if you get cyborg you become more robot than human and then at a certain point now you're just a machine that's kind of happy we're getting hip replacements knee replacements that cell phone is already part of your body because it's on you 24 7. it's just not inside your body like i i remember in an article where it's actually going to be inside your brain they can actually put a little chip inside your mouth and that's you can call and text people without touching without even having a phone or your favorite guy elon musk he's on that with neuralink they have a they're already testing them people or they put a chip that i guess has electrodes that connect to your brain they're using it initially i think for elderly people who try to speed up connections or whatnot i i i don't really know it's but they already have that there you know but the theory is that uh eventually they'll be able to implant knowledge and other stuff and yeah and i wonder mike this is my issue with it it's because the kind of knowledge they'll be implanted in your brain much like social media is selected yeah so you're going to miss out this is the people get because like you know people have argued with like oh i don't need to read books rob like i got google i can google and get the answers that's not the point of reading it's not the point of studying it's learning how to think yeah it's learning how to interpret data you have information information and you're able to what intelligently decide where the truth is right like you can actually judge and critique the data if you're being if you're having information coming from google and it's being uploaded to your brain through google where's the not i mean are you really wise it's not your information you're just repeating what someone gave you and it becomes an incredibly powerful tool of control and that's basically what social dilemma is about and it is going to get worse and they're talking about it because it it builds on itself as a snowball effect we become ever more reliant on wikipedia ever more reliant on google like there are certain things you google that you can't find the answer for you have to dig five six pages start digging some controversial topics things are not part of the american political spectrum for example you have to go to pitch page 789 to find it because they're not politically correct or they're outside of the spectrum they're outside of the debate so they're google like they they can control limit the what kind of information you have which is it's it's borders on dictatorial powers but we're volunteering for it that's what's so strange is that we're volunteering to be to have our you know opinions shaped by you know half a dozen people in silicon valley well it's funny because i was looking up you know we have elections coming up i got one of these uh ballots like sample ballots and one to look at and you see the list and of course presidential candidates vice president candidates were very familiar with them but then you have like 20 or so judges and i'm looking i don't know any of these people you know like how am i supposed to make an informed decision and then when you like google like oh you know like a nevada voter guide or something like that it just tells you oh like conservative guy picked these people you know you know liberal or you know democrats i pick these people i'm like that doesn't really help me like i want to know why i should pick somebody 100 it tells you the party because you're voting for the team you're not voting for his ideas right which is horrible which is horrible and i agree you know at least like the questions i can find like people's viewpoints and i can make like an informed decision but it goes more to the point where there you have to take a big leap of faith and believe that the people who are telling you this is real is real and as we've seen in recent times has shown to be very skewed based on people's biases 100 and like their personal motivation so it's like man harder to research something and find it true you know and especially online where it's so easy to fabricate stuff now yeah oh fake news is is a thing like that's a that's a it's a tool of war at this point yeah um no and with the judge's thing like i have i found this out recent i think i mentioned this to you before but like these judges you know was financing their campaigns right you know that like you know pays for their campaigns the attorneys oh yeah yeah it's not it's like washington this is why washington's so corrupt because who's banking the campaigns of all these congressmen and the president and everyone else in the private sector lobbyists we were looking for that judge that got you over she's gone oh yeah i found out my girlfriend's attorney friend like oh you know she was trying to look up the case to see who the judge was like oh no she didn't make the primary yeah considered to be the worst judge in the history of nevada she has the worst ratings in the history of nevada yeah so yeah unfortunately you have to suffer that one oh yeah well it's you know it's life yeah but i i uh like i always say time is the only judge that matters right uh dave uh dude i think it's time i think we yeah yeah hour mark this was fun we started with your hooks we ended up talking [ __ ] about google and you know my former judge [Laughter] um what else man um yeah man good times man good times i'll do some more often let's get a guest here soon um yeah guys just to give myself a plug my book is out did you get to read it i mean you haven't started have you i read the first like 10 15 pages like when people are like i i put in the toilet read a page every time you go to the bathroom read a page that's why i normally like i know you're a reader i know you're busy too but yeah like it's it's on on my website closeguardfilm.com from what i've seen it's been getting really good reviews you've you have a lot of the jiu jitsu elites reading it so guys you'll be missing out and i know the the little that i've read so far is already intriguing to me and i know a lot of the tidbits that you've shared me over the time so yeah it's uh um i think it gets better towards the second half where i start drawing with the conclusions i think the japan section of the trip to me at least is far more interesting than the brazil chapter maybe because i'm so familiar with brazilian culture it's like it's like going home in some ways it's not but japan was a bit of a cultural shock and i had been to japan before but this time i went there with different eyes and it was an eye-opening experience personally not just uh as a practitioner filmmaker right or whatever like at person as an individual it was somewhat of an eye-opening experience so anyway i hope you guys enjoy um and yeah let me know when you're done we'll and we'll talk yeah we'll do an episode going over it for sure and uh yeah guys but that's it if you're ever in vegas come visit me and david um yeah and uh yeah we'll see you guys next time you