BTG 48 - Slap Gate

[Music] hey guys what's going on i'm david avalon here with my co-host robert drysdale for another edition of breaking the guard robert what's going on not much man lots of work um looks like we're starting to come back to normal you know like back to 35 capacity which in nevada is a win i know in texas they're back to normal normal no masks i think that's a sign that the world is coming back to sanity and uh yeah i'm excited man so other than that just lots of work about yourself yep came back well no i think that was from last episode right we didn't do when since they came back from bali from tahiti or above i think it did oh we made it i think it was like right after you came back yeah i went to reno for a little bit then came back and uh now just been here getting ready have a camp in costa rica coming up in april okay i got one in may yeah as well yeah yeah so that's going to be fun you were in abu dhabi right dubai dubai i just came back from dubai i was in dubai talked to the investor about the documentary turns out this is like just give people a little update like it's actually turned into a bigger operation that we originally intended it was going to be a documentary for the jiu jitsu community now we're like talking about entering film festivals internationally oh wow so doing like a whole year of touring on film festivals or i'll be like representing the film as an executive producer and because it's it's the quality is actually pretty good like we actually have a shot at maybe winning or some nominations at least and that would up the value of the production for future sale you know let's say it's going to go on netflix it raises the value of the film right sure so we might be delaying purposely delaying the the release of the film for those reasons the investors on board like he wasn't you know he wasn't you know he wants to see the film of course but like i think it convinced me look man we can do something really historical here i'd rather err on being late than being you know 99 of what it could have been like we want to hit a home run here that's what we're aiming for and he was on board spent some quality time with him guys i hadn't seen him in three years so that was fun and then i went to i went to ski dubai uh what else i was gonna go skydiving in dubai because that's what i really wanted to do oh yeah and then uh i on the phone when i'm like trying to schedule they go how much do you weigh and i'm like 2 45 and they go i'm sorry you're too heavy to god that's what they told me i'm like are you serious i can't skydive like no you're too heavy i'm like [ __ ] that's on my bucket list i can't like it's it's out the window i guess i can't skydive unless i do it alone because it's too heavy with two people interesting i never i i i didn't know that was a thing but apparently it is if you're too heavy because i would be skydiving with an instructor yeah you do they call them tandem yeah it's exactly so like between the two of us i think we go over the limit so i've done a tandem dive before when i was like 200 pounds but i guess this extra 455 it is what it is man but i went skiing i snowboarding instead uh what else did i do the the the four-wheeler on the sand dunes oh atv yeah those are fun man like those are fun beautiful weather it was winter there but it's you know nothing crazy it was actually pretty warm so it was good it was a lot of fun good to be back it was a short trip i was there for like three days nice nice it's one of the places i gotta it's crazy man like it's it's a very intense like vegas on steroids that's how i describe dubai it's like that's pretty preposterous yeah no it is because you have that vibe of everyone's out there to make it make it quick and it draws that kind of crowd you know as a kind of like the i want to say it's like party city of the world because it can be pretty strict about it even though they have there's two worlds right there's the world for the locals and the world for the tourists like there's separate worlds but it's it could be a very strange and very interesting place at the same time like there are rules it's a it really is like a hybrid between the west and what they like about the west but without really dropping their values or their way of being like they're very traditional still it's a very muslim-oriented society but very western at the same time it's strange it's a strange combination interesting yeah it works man i i have fun there that was like my my third time there and uh it's funny because i've only snowboarded four times in my life the first one was in brian head the other three were in dubai well i live right next to the best snow in the world in utah and i have to go to the valley of snowboard it's a true story i've only gone uh snowboarding once it was in switzerland we went to crowd and that was a disaster it's hard oh god yeah i thought you know i know when i went skating it didn't work out well for me either but that was like when i was like a teenager or something oh snowboarding i've been doing more show arts and i got better yeah no not the same man it's a whole new ballgame like it's like all my instincts worked against me like oh i think i should lean forward no you're supposed to be leaning back yeah it's a disaster i can go forward pretty well like just going like side to side looking forward like an idiot like a zigzag but the second i had to turn like backwards to turn i lose my balance very quickly i go flying forward or back like i can't really find that happy middle but it's just a lot of practice man that's all it is it'd be pretty frustrating man because you eat it a lot like and it gets very uncomfortable because now you get snow underneath your shirt and your i can never no matter how kind of gloves or boots i got on my feet or hands are always cold it doesn't matter what i'm wearing so i'm always uncomfortable i'm on the fit like 10 minutes into snowboarding and i'm super uncomfortable i was there i went with my girlfriend jamie and we had a private instructor to try to teach us and he got frustrated because we were falling all over the place you know that makes you feel like [ __ ] you know because you can see that your coach is losing his patience with you like [ __ ] man yeah yeah you can see he's like gotta try again and what's it more demoralizing there's like these we're like on the kid hill yeah and you see the little kids i'm like what the hell man and then yeah we salvaged it by going on uh what you call it the sledding yeah oh that was amazing yeah that's a lot of fun yeah like but it's the only thing is you want to want to do like an increment it's like maybe two hours at a time i i after like that two hour mark it just i start getting like hungry uncomfortable you got to go in you have to like a cabin nearby go have a coffee eat chill take a nap maybe relax do something else and then go back maybe before it's too dark but that would be fun but you know being on the mountain for more than two hours i just can't do like that's as much as i want to be there to have fun and after that i'm like all right i need a break but i know people that go like five hours straight yeah that's a crazy thing you see people doing all sorts of weird tricks they're like jumping over you no it's it looks like one of those things that once you get the hang of it it's a lot of fun my dad is was a was i used to be a tennis coach and he's just saying the first year in tennis you're gonna hate it because you're just like picking a ball from the you're just picking a ball from the floor that's you don't really get to play second year you get to play surfing is the same thing they say the first year it sucks and then that's when you when you get the hang of it that's when it becomes a lot of fun because you're not falling all the time i think like snowboarding is something similar you get that it takes like a good i don't know how many practices maybe 30 practice for you to really go down the mountain and you're just killing it at least maybe more i don't know but it i mean you when you watch people going down they're not falling at all because i'm falling like between like four to eight times like at least at least but it looks like a lot of fun once you get the hang of it it does so let's talk about something that happened over the weekend which is where we got slap gate oh man that was crazy man yeah for those nine to know there was a who's number one event hosted by float grappling and uh they had gordon ryan facing uh robert jimenez and then they had craig jones facing ronaldo jr correct so gordon juan and he did something that was pretty amazing too which he did the babe ruth he called this submission victory in advance yeah and it wasn't leglock with you he went oh i'm going to do a mounted arm bar and he mounted on bart you know roberto and he's no joke yeah so i mean that was pretty impressive and then afterwards craig ended up kill hooking his opponent who was an attos team member and from what i heard uh gordon tried to approach uh andre to shake his hand some people were saying that he was doing it smugly they're trying to rub in the fact that his guys won probably combination you know like you do for the cameras being like like rub it in his face at the same time they're not necessarily and for the camera purposes i think the right thing to do would have been to just shake his hand and let it be but yeah or yeah whatever the case is but the video then afterwards if you haven't seen the video it's all over the place just youtube uh gordon slap allow and it's all over the place but uh the video that i see it shows andre following uh gordon and then he can you can't really hear what andre is saying but you can hear the response from gordon and he says why am i running why am i running yeah and then uh andre ends up pushing him gives him the finger gordon then returns boom a nice [ __ ] smacked his face and it was loud i don't know if you're the one that was in the darker now yeah yeah yeah yeah that was it was pretty loud yeah hits him and then you would think at that point hands should be thrown yeah but then something weird happens which andre just keeps talking crap and following gordon yeah and then after another like 20 seconds gordon turns around faces him slaps him a second time and then you would think okay now the fights definitely has to happen and nothing happens nothing happens and then andrew just keeps following him talking [ __ ] which is just it's not the wrong thing to do like you either gotta back down completely or escalate there's no in between yeah you know like in the animal world which we're a part of those before violence takes place before a fight happens there are levels of escalation is a build-up yeah because essentially no animal wants to get into a fight needlessly because they know they can get hurt yeah and when you're in the wild you get injured it could be death you know that infection and whatnot first one is usually physical posturing you know you'll see animals puffing up scene yeah and guys do that too they start you know they're trying to show look i'm dangerous we're just more sophisticated than them we just talk a lot of [ __ ] yeah and the second thing is talk right like you know we make in animal worlds allowed wars to scare you but in our world we're making physical threats and you know doing the chest pounding stuff then pushing i think is the first the weakest form of physical violence that you could do yeah which is still a challenge you're not actually hurting somebody yet but you're saying tempting i doubt i dare you yeah and you push him away but at the same time like if you keep coming at me something's going to go down yeah a slap is the next level of escalation because now you're like oh i hurt you not seriously but i just hurt you are you gonna let me get away with this or if not more is coming behind it that's what a slap means yeah and then obviously the next level is fighting now we're gonna throw and go you know there's no point of return in normal order you either match somebody's level or you you raise it yeah and beyond that like you like you said earlier you just step away you back out back down and it's like i go like what dogs do they throw themselves on their backs yeah with their legs up in the air like i'm the beta yeah the dogs do that like they're about to find one of them my back down okay okay i don't want to fight you win right that's another option so what was weird about this is that they were talking crap to each other gaval escalates he pushes them then gordon escalates with a slap and then you would expect either a return slap a punch or you back away but instead galvao just still keeps following him talking crap like he stayed like a level zero when this guy went to level two it's just so weird like i can't wrap my mind around it you know it's just a very i think that he wasn't he people confuse real world with instagram these days like to me there's instagram where everyone's tough and everyone can talk [ __ ] and then there's the real i think andre forgot he was in the real world for a second there you know i'm saying like you're gonna you can't it's not like you said you're escalated there's no more talking [ __ ] after that yeah you either escalate or you back down there's no in between like or you can at least match them right back i mean at the end of the day you back down there's no way around it it's like oh no i'm just like i keep in my temper i'm like dude that's not keeping your i've seen and i like i don't dislike under i think it's you know i've seen him lose his temper more times than i can count i've known him for years i think deep down he just might be intimidated like and i and i don't think there's any shame in them maybe you're just you know you're human like whatever like i you know i'm i'm in tim francis nagano has been in my gym a couple times like i look at him could i take this guy and i'm like [ __ ] man i don't think i could take this guy's [ __ ] kill me and someone intimidated he's a he's a very athletic guy he's very strong he's like you know like it's like a scary guy to fight you know and i'm looking at him going can i take this guy i don't think i could and it hurts me to say that like a massive vehicle you don't want to say that that's true right like what are you gonna do can i take him down probably not if he hits me once i'm probably gonna go lights out you know maybe i could put up a fight you know if i clinch him you know but then i'm looking thinking but if he [ __ ] slapped me would i fight back oh [ __ ] yeah a hundred percent like a for instant guy who walked up to me and bitch-slapped me i'd be like i'm terrified i cannot win but i'm swinging it back i don't care who you are yeah like i can never live i can live with myself with francis angani and knock me out i can live with myself if he tapped me maybe not maybe not that i couldn't but if he knocked me out i could live with but if he [ __ ] slapped me i 100 could not live with myself i would be taking that to my grave i'd be like i can't believe i backed down i'd be chasing him down like now we gotta fight bro even if you win like it's fine but we got to fight yeah you know so next time you're going to know that if you touch me it's going to be and then what happens is the guys people people would resp when they even when they beat you man we were kids i remember you'd fight when someone beat you they respected even if you lost like there was a respecter they stopped because they knew that if they picked a fight with you they're gonna have to get dirty yeah and so there was like a respect i'm like all right bro we established that i'm better than you but i don't want to do that again and sometimes the loser was the one who wanted to fight again and the winner was like dude i don't want to do that again because he feels like you know you know probably try to maintain his status but there's also like a respect that is gained when a guy actually picks a fight this is why the bully always picks the weakest child in the group yes the bully always goes for the child that he knows deep down is not gonna fight back like children understand this right but if you if you know the guy is going to fight back you're looking for it's like the lion who's chasing the gazelle he doesn't go for the fastest gazelle he goes for the weakest one the slowest one it's the same thing and you know what's what's happening you're going to go for the weakest one because you know he's not going to fight back gordon knows now deep down in his heart that andre is scared of him yeah and that's why and that's why i will wager with everyone in here you're listening you want to put money on it that fight is never going to happen i'll put money on it because the asking for a million dollars at the end of days a way out that's what it is yeah when you start connecting all the dots he definitely it would the evidence would suggest he does not want to fight him right because remember at one point they had three hundred thousand dollars up and they they had ready to pay the winner it was a winner take all and it started at a hundred thousand and then they kept moving it up moving it up and then they finally got to three hundred thousand they might get to a million maybe i'm wrong they might actually get there no they will no no the abcc is not going to pay for it but they might get a group of rich guys together there are people out there dave that spent three hundred thousand dollars on a nightclub in a night at hakkasan you know marcelo works there's like rob there's a guy there today and he spent like 250 000 on drinks buy drinks right like 250 000 in one night there are people out there that are million dollars and then this change one of those guys really wants to see this fight he'll give him a million but the thing is i don't i mean he'll take the mill but i don't think he wants to fight i think he's saying a million because at this stage it's clearly it's clear to me that you know he's not interested and he doesn't have to prove like what does andre have to prove in the grand scheme of things he's done it all man like kudos to him he's much older he's done it all he's been talking about retirement for a long time he doesn't have to but now he's cornering himself in a position but if he doesn't it's just going to make him look really bad really really bad you know because yeah what i was saying before they gave him a 300 000 potential payday he backed away from it right and then at that point what did he say oh it has to be a million now yeah you know and when when i think initially he had agreed that it was 300 grand it would have been good and then they lev they moved it up and then now he's been doing this well i want a million also so it's it seems like a way to get out of fight and then this happens clearly he didn't want to fight right and like you said he must have thought that it was not possible to get into a fight and i guess he forgot he was in the real world and this is one of the situations where like i don't fault gordon at all for everything he did i see him in the right you know if somebody who's mad at me is talking [ __ ] behind my back as i'm walking away and following me i'm putting myself in danger because i don't know what this guy's going to do yeah yeah because if he's following me a long distance talking crap he's obviously he wants a response and if i don't respond to him he might just hit me in the back of the head or something no i i actually think that if someone is if you someone's yelling at you like you know here's the thing you can always draw the line between verbal violence and physical violence right but at the same time these guys are fighters there's that so it's like those worlds are kind of like it's blurry already because you're a fighter you're not talking about like regular people you know people that are trained to fight and andre pushed him first i didn't see the whole yeah once you put your hands on me like it's gone like there's nothing anything i do is sort of like it's justified yeah justify this point so he opened the door i don't think he was ready i thought actually deep down i think he thinks that gordon was to back down and he didn't i thought they were just bluffing and then gordon like all right i'll take you on it and then i was like all right all right all right you went he kind of did the dog you know threw himself on his back and yeah but you see that's something like he kept barking though that's that was which made it really weird right yeah because yeah because this guy again he was chasing him walked away and then when he kept he kept saying oh why are you running so when he turned around to face him andre pushed him yeah at that point now it's a fair game you know 100 100 and the slap to me it's a controlled response to be honest i'll be i'll tell you the truth i would have just punched yeah i i don't slap because to me honestly it makes it make there's something bad about being slapped i'd rather get punched oh yeah there's something there's something that's so humiliating about it because the slap is it's essentially like you're calling him a [ __ ] you're calling him a [ __ ] right look i'm gonna hit you and you either you step up or you walk away but you're walking away with like a scarlet letter you know i mean it's like my handprint it's fresh on your face so to me that's like you said i can't think of one instance in my life you know that that someone slapped me without getting punched yeah i can't think when i was in in grade school and stuff like that i got solid a bunch of time but it was a fight right afterwards it was on yeah the thing is like 20 years ago this was unthinkable because it would have been a story have you heard did you know it was like god it's gossip at that point because like now everyone's got a camera so you got to be i mean when you're when you're in that level and they're like this is the thing about being a celebrity right people everyone's hustling to be famous it's like you don't understand how hard it is to be in the spotlight the whole time yeah i have never been that but i've seen it i've been around it i've seen people who are in the spotlight the whole time dude there's no reason why celebrities like commit suicide and they're like you know going overdosing on drugs it's like it's a lot of pressure man like i mean you know britney spears leaves the house and she's got a bad you know hairdo and then she's like it's all over the news the next day yeah you know maybe she gained some weight and it's all over like it's just terrible man like people watching you 24 7. if that had been two whiteboards no one would have cared yeah you know but when you're at that level man you got to be watching every move that's going to go on the internet forever now and i know these these guys have massive egos man like i mean guess all fighters do that's somewhat healthy and you know in some regard but you got to live with that now i got i i couldn't no i would be calling him out like i'd be going to his gym like they were going to have to fight old school right now i don't care you have to redeem yourself after that yeah i i've talked to my brother about this i talked to i'd be like i i have a hard time like getting my head around it you know because look andre has fought mma before and he's a he's a good fighter he's a good fighter yeah he can obviously fight you know so it's just weird like he had he was obviously not in the right headspace and like you said he must have thought this was instagram or maybe he thought because there were cameras there that they wouldn't go up but to me you can't rely on that you know you can't think that oh because people are watching that he's going to be civil especially with someone like gordon to hand this this is a easy opportunity to get even more fame you know he's all about getting attention and and he knows how to do it yeah i mean when you think we want like he's he is not only that he's exceptionally good at nogi but he's also exceptionally good at manipulating the press manipulating that he's very good at marketing himself in a very bad guy kind of way he's like the guy that everyone loves to hate yeah what was the name of that that um andy kaufman yeah that's like that he's like the andy kaufman of jiu jitsu you know like if he just everyone loves to hate him yeah but you know say what about the kid and i i've had my my fair share of you know arguing with him he's very talented i don't know his it's just like you know his talent is mad i mean he's very stupid too you know i think his stupidity is matched by his talent he's very talented but you know you got to give him like he backs it up you know say what you want like you said you called it murder jimenez is a legit grappler he calls his armbar from mount dude that's hard to do yeah i don't care who you are like at the high level you know now roberto i honestly didn't expect roberto to beat him because he's too young gordon's just he's a better grappler yeah and without the no doubt but not like that man at least at least put up a fight he did he's i'm going to beat you from mountains it's incredible man truly but on the other hand there's this is all exciting to talk about but this is not good for the sport and i keep saying this everyone because we get excited because it's like all [ __ ] was going to happen but the grand scheme of things you think this makes this is the two of the biggest icons on the sport of jujitsu they're the super fight adcc which i think their adcc loses credibility when this happens in my view it doesn't break okay maybe more people will watch but a lot of people watch pro wrestling it doesn't make it just because a lot of people are watching prestigious yeah exactly like you know you you you you lost class because you have two of their biggest icons they're two super fight where the next super fight and they're fighting like they're in high school like they're like teenagers scrapping and you know at the end you know with left the bell rings or something i think long term this is very bad for jiu jitsu it's bad adcc loses credibility when this happens like i i'm of the opinion there should be some kind of repercussions like if you're like if you represent organization it's supposed to be like you know the big the olympics the grappling man you got to do something like what what are the repercussions nothing they're actually reposting it like they're actually like yeah guys are typing up because it's all about the hype that's the only thing people are looking at i think you've got to look past just this 2022 adcc and you got to look at what is edcc going to be 50 years from now like you got to think longevity i don't think people are thinking that far ahead but this discredits jiu jitsu doesn't make us look good you know it doesn't and uh it's again conor mcgregor effect right like this is the page out of his plan although to be fair it doesn't look like gordon had a role in this as far as like planning the event no no no no he didn't like he defended himself like in my opinion very civilly because like i said like me someone lays hands on me we're throwing down i would have just went from push to punch you know so the fact that he slapped him not once but twice it kind of shows your strength i'll be honest like it shows control because yeah if you see him he's falling from all over the place and dude you got someone like about who could [ __ ] you up and he's following you around angry talking [ __ ] yeah that's not exactly the safest place to be you know no yeah the fact that he's following him just makes it so much because like you are asking for it because if you didn't want any you should have just stayed in your exactly i i i think it's i think it was mike tyson that said like the internet got you all too comfortable like talking [ __ ] not getting punched in the face for it or something like that it was like a really good quote i think i reposted it too like yeah man that's because it's true like it has allowed people to talk a lot of smack and get away with it you see this all over the place now this is not just this is like everywhere i don't know if you're going to talk [ __ ] someone's face like that you have to be ready to get like dude like especially if you're dealing with fighters yeah you know i think it's you know someone sent me a picture of you know they're doing the protest and there's this girl she's like screaming at a cop the cop is just standing yeah and she's got her finger in his face i'm like i don't think you realize that how and they're talking about privilege she was like that's a lot of privilege right there you know because if you can walk up to a guy that you know it's like me walking up to francis and god and go like sticking my finger in his face and spitting [ __ ] and then like freshly gone just standing there i'm like bro careful man right like you should not be able to do that like that's crazy to me yeah you're you're pushing you're you're you're playing like that that's a [ __ ] gorilla you could a fighter could kill you yeah like you don't understand those cops can kill you can't do that no there was a guy just uh the other day here in vegas killed someone with one punch [ __ ] happened yeah mary uh i don't know the full story but apparently it was a couple walking down the strip some crazy guys started following them they went on the escalator he got to the bottom escalade waited for them and then when he got down yeah cracked him hit his head on the floor died you know so like yeah you know people like oh you you know why would you fight so quickly because i don't want to be the guy that hits his head in the concrete and dies you know like these things have serious consequences so like that's why like i don't see gordon in the wrong here he anything he was controlled in the response what's weird to me is that okay you got slapped once shouldn't have happened in the first place like you're a fighter where the hell are your hands where's your head movement yeah you push the guy and he's walking into you like what do you think was gonna happen he didn't think he didn't believe it like to me like that's that's naive you know the first time he got away with he could have said like okay this is not gonna get best right the second time bro you're sleeping man seriously wake up put the dukes up dude like come on i agree in this particular event i think like you know gordon's in the right like he just did what i would have done probably i probably would have might have i've had less temper and might want to punch the guy instead of slapping you know he has a skill to get underneath people's skin like he has an ability and the other thing too is and this is not related but it is part of the trajectory that got them there he has a history of disrespecting people that he should be respecting because they paved the way on the the world he's walking on has been paved by people he disrespects non-stop i that when i when i see him disrespect not even myself myself like cyborg like it just it drives me quickly like dude you're you don't realize you're [ __ ] on the people that pave the way for you to be where you are i think that's incredible disrespectful period with that being said you know it doesn't justify you know you should as you should keep your temper like you should you know you can't lose your cool or if you're going to lose your cool lose it yeah don't be in that limbo of [ __ ] talking and not honestly if you would have asked me like two weeks ago if that of the situation like not given the names just like if this happens i would have believed it was the other way around i would have imagined like andre would have been the one playing the role of gordon instead of what happened actually shot me because i always thought that andrew was gonna i was gonna lose his ship because i've seen him lose it many times and gordon was the one who's gonna back down because like my experience with people that talk a lot of [ __ ] they're like dogs that bark a lot yeah but don't bite my experience with most people right gordon's a guy who talks a lot of smack i'm like i think that if you press that kid he'd probably break that's my but i could be wrong i'm always like he talks a lot maybe if my stereotype is accurate he's a dog that barks a lot but if you press him he's going to fold he didn't fold man uh no he's it was the other way around yeah and that that kind of caught me off guard i would have never guessed the other thing which again like i said the last time i got into a fight was probably like in grade school because once i started learning high school i think once i started wrestling i never got into a fight ever again not even close like not even remotely close and attribute that just to the attitude you know like i think there's a level of confidence that you have like as a martial artist or at least it should have that you wouldn't go around challenging people needlessly even to the point where like i i wrote about this but i said like there's certain rules that i would follow like one like i don't go to dangerous places right that keeps me safe yeah you know if i'm going into the ghetto yeah trouble's gonna find me because i'm in the place where trouble lives yeah right it's like no like i don't do that i don't drink or do drugs or mentally compromise myself or i might make foolish decisions i also don't get really close to people that i don't know right i'm not gonna get up into someone's face that i have no clue about because man you promote violence right there you are if you don't know where you're at you're ground you should probably just be very conservative about where you know what i'm saying you're not but you oh he opened the door man that's in that's to me that's you got what you asked for yeah he did everything to to pick a fight without wanting to have a fight that's what was weird you know i think oh wait i talked about software but i said it's like a game of poker where gav that was bluffing and then gordon called him had the better hand and then gabon just kept bluffing anyways he was like dude i saw your hands you can't bluff anymore yeah nothing you know i got a i got a pair of raisins what are you doing yeah yeah you get bluffy even though you have to be like showing his cards like absolutely now that he keeps like that's a great way to put it um yeah man it's it's man you know i look it's as entertaining as this all is like i feel jiu jitsu is turning into a high school you know it's gone it's that should not i mean they're adults man like these guys are not you know especially i mean i know entertainment you know but it's there should be a level i mean it's i think it's it's overall bad for the sport we've descended into it's turned into a circus you know what's next well apparently you have two things that are very circus related first you have craig jones i guess they're saying now he's gonna fight daddy garcia i know you saw that i'm not sure if he's serious or not gabby seems very serious they're just joking they can't be serious like there's no way if that happens that would be pretty funny because i think craig jones but you put a bunch of funny things one he has that meme where he shows the guy in the party he's in the corner and everyone's ignoring him he goes i'm the main event and it has a gordon and come out yeah yeah the middle dancing yeah and then you put like uh oh no no one ever forgot the results like no one pays attention to the event it's all about the slap yeah he's like uh gordon upstate his own teammate is it what he upstaged his own team oh yeah so then uh i think gabby said oh she'll fight gordon you know like uh for the best uh whatever and then craig goes i'll fight you and then she goes oh are you for real or you said the keyboard [ __ ] whatever i was like oh yeah it's it's gotten it's a thing you know it's you know i don't know like i when i want to be entertained i watch bill burr and dave chappelle put it like that you know like but like it's it's it it damages the image of the sport long run like i i think it'd be true i mean if i were the president of accepted repercussions if i was the president of you know who's number one there have been repercussions 100 to both of them yeah but this is more clickbait and yeah it works it works i mean if you want to boost your algorithm and get likes i guess that's what you got to do but what's next like i feel like it's escalating because you got to raise the bar because you want to get a bigger applause next time what do you got to do well you raised the bar they would have a good formula for it because now you have gordon ryan and vagnerocha they both apparently have an affinity for slapping someone's yeah i hope that gordon stands up with him because like wagner has like that like that head fighting thing that annoys the [ __ ] out of people you know he does stuff that picks fights for sure yeah you know like in wrestling there's guys that would do this where they'll palm you in the forehead and to in the wrestle world that's like being slapped in the face because it's highly annoying you know and they're just like oh yeah like that and it's like i remember is it legal because it doesn't serve a purpose well then i guess you know you could club the head and whatnot i remember because there was a guy that always used to do that and it was like i think he was from north miami beach we had some good matches and one of them he kept doing that thing and i clubbed his head then he clubbed me harder and so we had an escalation of this clubbing yeah where we just forgot about wrestling and we literally just went but he has that type of very physical style that will get people riled up which he obviously has you know so yeah if that that happens with gordon uh we might have some more fireworks you know stylistically why so i it's i think they've already grappled each other right cool the gordon and uh and uh wagner magnet i don't know i don't know i can't keep up there's so many of them i can't keep up anymore but i think an ebi they're almost each other i could be wrong but i think they did either way i would think that's another one really like gordon i think just scored his way i think for the next a year or two like he's going to be there's a given to you it's there's always someone that's going to it's the one thing history teaches been fighting pretty consistently is that there's always someone that will have your achilles heel like he's going to know what your achilles heel is he's going to have the poise in it and it's very hard to stay on top of the reality of it like think about like look at mma how many guys hold that belt what's the average amount of fights that someone hold on to that belt two three i don't know like it's not a lot i mean you get the gsps and the anderson silva's of the world that hold on to it for a long time but those are the exceptions yeah the vast majority of people who hold on to that belt hold the bell for what i don't know what the app my guess is like two fights that's the average like maybe three you know it's very hard to stay on top for a very long time i don't care how good you are like and then you get the exceptional guys like i said like gsp was a champion for a long time but out of everyone that's been through the ufc or all the champions for that matter how many held the belt for as long as he did yeah it's a very it's a small minority i think it's the same for every sport you get the michael phelps right but it's you know eventually someone's gonna come along and blow him out of the water if he keeps competing you know at some point there's just no way out of it it's just the nature of the goes but like right now i i can't think of anyone to beat them without the game i mean i think they're guys that match with bouche i still like to see that again man like i think it was very close there's like two points there that i still have to go over the rules again because he's set with the headlock and if i'm not mistaken that's two but again the refereeing with adcc is so bad it's it's the word people you know it's funny like i was arguing with someone and you know oh but their referees have 10 years of experience and i go you means they've they've left five times their whole life is that way like it's that's not a lot of experience but uh that's the it's the the referee's ex i don't mean to offend like but people talk all these sorts of smack about ib2jf they're way better i mean in terms of organization and like refereeing it's like light years ahead i think the problem i think the refs could use more experience but more than that the rules are so subjective very subjective so not only do you have someone who doesn't have a lot of experience but now you're living it up to their judgment call which you're probably not going to agree with you know so i i that's why like rules are more cut and dry let's take out all this gray area which is very hard which makes it so hard to deal with because you're going to have it's a it's a crying shame that you could have one match that if you switch referees would have very different outcomes completely different yeah so like man there's obviously something wrong with this scoring and they they seem to think that you know leaving the gray area in the hands of the judge or the referee is a good idea like it's not like you have to i think it fighting is subjective right i think it's impossible to get rid of all gray area but what good rules do it's like a constitution it's like any a contract what a good attorney does is like he narrows down the great area to its like almost existing it's yeah i think there's always like good attorneys can read any contract and go there's a way in right like that there's a way to break this there's there's crafty ways of manipulating the system right if you're if you're you know good or slash dishonest depends how you want to look at it turn you might be able to do that good competitors are the same thing they master what shredding that line like where's the gray area how can i trick the referee like i'm not going to mention names but i know people they get their backs taken and they act like they're off balance and they go out of bounds you know what i'm saying like they're really good and you can't tell and i know he's i know he's just playing the rough that's a trick he's acting like he's off balance and he goes out of bounds he wasn't he wasn't off balance he was pushing a fight out of bounds and the referee just stops the fight stands back up and nothing happens doesn't doesn't start back on the back right so there are ways of manipulating but with adcc i feel like the rules they really need to be rethought there's a lot of great area and there's a lot that is being left to the reps and that's just never that's just never good for the sport like you need consistency with with refereeing you should like the whole the whole the barometer should be like we can have this match with five different referees they're all called the same and okay then we're good we're consistent right and that's what all you could ask for as a competitor that i know okay i might not like this but i know it's going to go this way yeah now like man it's a coin toss how this call is going to turn out you know that's not a good feeling and everybody should know i mean that's the whole point behind having the rules like i know okay when this happens i get awarded this or penalize this not like well if it's this referee i'm good yeah i know sometimes when abc when i saw it certainly enough i'm like oh no 100 like you you get the bat like even iph like i mean i'm not like they're not very far from perfect like they there are referees jeff that i trust with my life like that guy's a good referee yeah right there's like honestly and that the ones that i really trust we're talking like four or five yeah the rest of them like okay here we go yeah you know because it is in their defense man it is very very hard to referee the only people who talk [ __ ] about referees if you're really paying people like that never refereed after you referee a few times you'd gain like a whole new respect for that profession because it's very difficult which is why yeah it is very difficult i've run i think like 10 different rapping tournaments and it was like me and my brother reffing almost all the matches so like i have a lot of reffing experience on my belt it's not fun it's very stressful especially when you're dealing with kids or young people you don't want them to hurt themselves and then you have to make that call sometimes they're not going to tap i'm going to step in from that for them and everybody complains and all that but like i don't want your five-year-old to break his arm excuse me for uh for stopping this match oh yeah when it's bent back you know 20 degrees but making calls very subjective you just increase the level of stress that referee already has because now like he has to make the judgment call and you know if it's late in the day those judgment calls are probably not going to be as good you know because he's tired because he's like anything else refereeing is exhausting because you have to have your focus the whole time so you're like you're trying to watch every little and your focus wanes after a while there's like plenty of research on this like you make too many decisions and your brain gets exhausted your brain gets tired of making decisions like you need this is why like one of the best things i've just ever done is before you would referee for eight nine hours straight right now they do you referee for an hour you get an hour break and the guys go in the back room and they eat drink coffee nap whatever they want to do they get a little break and on their phone and they come back and referee for another hour so they're working if the term is 12 hours long they're working six hours a day with like six hours of break yeah nice very reasonable it's yeah it's reasonable and i think the the the level of referee went up after that you know but and not to mention the train there's a lot of training now is it perfect no the rules are complicated dude i had bushes admit to me once that he didn't understand the rules that's their number one he's like i barely understand the rules that's what he told me you know they they it's it's complicated it's not easy it's not like oh i got the solution it's not so simple man you can't create a perfect rule set the things you can do to make them better but in terms of adc i think they got a long way to go in terms of like really getting rid of the gray area they got way too much left of the referee and a good idea a good example of this if you if you pick up an ipgf rulebook look how thick it is and then you look at most tournaments their rulebook is a quarter of the size like you can do the read it's like their some rules are very very like we're talking two three pages here yeah and then you go to ibf rule chat we're talking i don't know what it is i'm guessing like 40 plus pages i have to look but it's they're very dense and i had to look through it once it's it's quite dense it's because they have to what they're trying to do and it's not perfect it's doing what to that gray area they're trying to make a narrow they're trying to make it very small but competitors of course are always gonna find whatever that is and that's where they're gonna they're gonna walk that gray area line it's not easy man like i i've become less i mean i know i'm so critical of refereeing and rules in general but it's a very hard job no it definitely is and just because in my opinion martial arts grappling sports are probably the most complex sport that you have period there's so many techniques there's so many variations you know that it's very hard to make a consistent scoring criteria i just think that certain particular acc rules they allow for a lot of gray areas unnecessarily yes it can be avoided yeah you can make things very simple like the whole turtle not counting for points that's a massive gray area that's a massive problem and it doesn't make sense it makes it much more difficult if you just made it more binary take down it's points it doesn't matter what time it is or not it's very easy to score now and the other one is like there's some things like like the on the back you know like four eight twelve that makes no sense but like it and the worst one to me was like the concrete you have like transitions and sequences going on for like 30 seconds on concrete the referee is watching like dude when are you going to stop this and for good reason me yeah we went out of bounds i got a heel hook from paul harris and like when they called the time i was good my knee was down the mat he was like at the heel hook i wasn't in any danger but then when they said you know whatever i went to my back i just sat there and this guy ripped it off my knee yeah and now you go back in there now i got back in and i'm screwed and we started from a worse position you know from the position they stopped yeah they he cranked me but i'm not from where i was at so i from my lesson from there was like oh you never stop fighting never not even when they're represented you just let them physically part you because in that situation that's what i should teach that to my students yeah you don't stop until the referee touches you because when he even when he's in theory he's supposed to stop when i've seen plenty of referees and score points after they say battle yeah because the thing i i don't think it's intentional i think it's just like they don't they forgot they because the sequence looks legit after he said but dude once you say whatever happens after that doesn't mean anything yeah yeah so i actually you keep going until he actually puts his hand on you and then then after that it's it's a more it's more symbolic than just saying something right well like they did put the hand out yeah and they still got cranks no i do i believe i know that's that's why my thing i tell guys just keep going let the ref physically break you apart because then it means something he actually touched you and he's trying to break you apart and not just that i've seen acc in the super fights where there was a guard pass that happened just out of bounds yeah and the ref would call time they just kept going and the guy on bottom just never let the position settle and then when they finally broke them apart when they try to restart them he's like no no i wasn't here i wasn't here yeah and they just went stand on your feet i'm like yeah he just gained himself out of us it's shitty but i think experience will teach you how to manipulate those experiences or those moments in your favor right so i mean man it's not it's not pretty man i don't think there's a perfect rules i really i mean i think that there are improvements that can be made of course everyone's got their own idea what the best rule set is what's interesting to me is people maybe i'm guilty of this too is that people's preferred rule set is always leaning towards their own personal preferences technically you ever notice that whatever i'm good at that's what's good for jiu-jitsu it's like i wonder like where is where does the bias begin and what when does what's best for jiu-jitsu begin like where does one end did the other one begin right my point um if people that hate leglocks are you know adamant against because they're not good at them so they're against them people are really good at leg locks you know people are good at wrestling they want a more wrestling oriented game which is all you know understandable going just because i'm i'm like been geeking out on jiu jitsu history recently like helio gracie was used to battle for no points short geese and uh like long matches he liked the longer the better right because he was a resilient guy he said he had he played a patient game right or a patience game and so that's what he always wanted to do and then when they start the federation in 67 or like i think 54 or 52 the first time they ruled the rule said that it is today the foundation of ibjf right would have been 52 or 54 and then he 67 they found the federation it was with points with time limit with all that and i wonder why did helio concede because that's not the rules that he liked he hated points i think he conceded because he was retired so it doesn't matter now it's easy to say stuff like that so maybe maybe that might be added to that too maybe i say it's okay i think that guar a guard pulling should be penalized because i'm retired so it doesn't make a difference to me because all i did my whole life was paul guard maybe if you asked that question 20 years ago i'm like no guard pulled in all day you can't penalize that but now i i feel against it so it's you know maybe we all fall victim to the bias of like leaning towards what we like but you know competitors competitors they know how to manipulate the rules but because they're biased they i don't think they're the best people to be making decisions but people have never competing shouldn't either i think that people that have competition experience but are not competing are probably the ones best positioned to create a good rule set unfortunately don't compete anymore yeah yeah i really think i mean sometimes okay i'm trying to you know toot my own horror but like i think we are but because like we don't have we're not invested in the sense like this has got like whatever works to me is cool it's good for jiu jitsu right and then on the other hand you get the promoters coming up with rules and they've never competed before like if and i'm not going to mention anything but like if you look at most promoters either professional events or these tournaments the vast majority of them never competed or they have very little competition experience yeah almost unanimously if you look at people that are making up rules if you dig this deep you're going to find someone who has never competed before or competed very little very rarely what i to me that's crazy it's like you don't have the rules so you have to ask that people best know the rules which is without a doubt the athletes yeah it's just that when you ask people who are competing they're always going to want to favor their game because they're too invested in it still right so there's two extremes there um yeah so ask me i got all the answers just just ask me indeed we know everything all right that's a good way to close it up yeah yes we know all the answers uh once again we solve all the world's problems here this is the best podcast on the internet man i don't care what people say we always have all the solutions to everything that's awesome all right dave's a pleasure man we got to cut a little short a little early today i got class and a few um i'll be gone for a week and then when i'm back we'll uh we'll get back to it sounds good all right everybody take care ciao you